Looks like the Fed needs a TFR against itself!

Brantel · Post by **Brantel** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:22 pm

Looks like the tide turned on the Feds today!!!!

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:02 am

Yeah, that was a BONEHEADED move...I hadn't heard much about it yesterday, but it's all the rage this morning!

Post by **Spike** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:53 am

*snicker* Pretty easy to do isn't it boys?

I have mixed emotions about it though to be honest. I see both sides of the story. I am not sure I agree with the notion that a city's Mayor has to give permission before something happens in the federally controlled airspace above the city.

Now, on the human side, there wasn't much though put into what they were doing. Some other city it might have been a no biggie, but Manhattan?

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:05 am

I completely agree with you Spike...the mayor has no authority on this, and saying that if he would've known, he would've told them no...??? Don't think so...

If I lived there, however, I would've felt the same I'm sure...I woulda run for cover!

4kilo · Post by **4kilo** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:19 pm

The real problem is just communication: If someone had told the people on the ground what was happening ahead of time there would have been no panic (or reason for panic).

Pat

TomNativeNewYorker · Post by **TomNativeNewYorker** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:00 pm

Is there restricted airspace around Liberty Island or NYC that the VC-25A would have needed special permission to do the flyby?

newtech · Post by **newtech** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:17 pm

TomNativeNewYorker wrote:Is there restricted airspace around Liberty Island or NYC that the VC-25A would have needed special permission to do the flyby?

Basically, the U.S. Air Force can fly pretty much where ever it wants to. With the F-16 fighter escort, do we know that the VC-25A wasn't actually able to use the call sign Air Force One?

airguy · Post by **airguy** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:19 am

newtech wrote:Basically, the U.S. Air Force can fly pretty much where ever it wants to. With the F-16 fighter escort, do we know that the VC-25A wasn't actually able to use the call sign Air Force One?

The aircraft (there are multiples) only use the callsign Airforce One when the president is aboard. Any other time they use a different callsign. Same applies to the helicopters he uses for short transport, it is Marine One only while the president is aboard.

DanH · Post by **DanH** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:32 pm

The root problem is the unthinking (and dangerous) inclination toward "secrecy" so prevalent in government these days. Why was there any need to keep this flight secret?

They could have just as easily done a press release for the AM news; "The aircraft known to the public as Air Force One will make a low pass down the Hudson this morning and circle the Statue of Liberty, complete with fighter escort. The Air Force says it is all part of a training mission." Half the citizens of New York would have lined the river to wave flags.

airguy · Post by **airguy** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:42 pm

DanH wrote:The root problem is the unthinking (and dangerous) inclination toward "secrecy" so prevalent in government these days. Why was there any need to keep this flight secret?

They could have just as easily done a press release for the AM news; "The aircraft known to the public as Air Force One will make a low pass down the Hudson this morning and circle the Statue of Liberty, complete with fighter escort. The Air Force says it is all part of a training mission." Half the citizens of New York would have lined the river to wave flags.

And there lies the problem - you might have one nutjob with a homemade antiaircraft gun or missile trying to take it out as a visible symbol.

Bob Barrett · Post by **Bob Barrett** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:42 pm

Although most of my money would be bet on a local nut job trying to bring down Air Force One or its facsimile, not all of the bad guys are in Iraq or Afganstan. It would sure Osma Bin Laden a lot to brag about if they could claim to have taken down Air Force One. Frankly I think it was not a bright idea to fly over any city low and slow with or without a fighter escort!

painless · Post by **painless** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:08 pm

I have one question. Doesn't the US Airforce know about photoshop???

TomNativeNewYorker · Post by **TomNativeNewYorker** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:59 am

newtech wrote:
TomNativeNewYorker wrote:Is there restricted airspace around Liberty Island or NYC that the VC-25A would have needed special permission to do the flyby?
Basically, the U.S. Air Force can fly pretty much where ever it wants to.

Since I do not fly, can you clarify the procedures for me? Any air force(or military) flight does not have to file a flight plan, get permission to take off, nor check in or follow instructions from air traffic control? I was under the impression that the military only had control in 'military ops areas'

And let me rephrase the original question........Is there restricted airspace around Liberty Island or NYC that ANY aircraft would need special permission to do a flyby?

Thermos · Post by **Thermos** » Fri May 01, 2009 9:03 am

TomNativeNewYorker wrote:Since I do not fly, can you clarify the procedures for me? Any air force(or military) flight does not have to file a flight plan, get permission to take off, nor check in or follow instructions from air traffic control? I was under the impression that the military only had control in 'military ops areas'

If a military aircraft is participating in the US air traffic control system, they follow the rules like everyone else. And even in military restricted airspace, there's often a lot of coordination going on between DoD air traffic controllers and the FAA.

TomNativeNewYorker wrote:....Is there restricted airspace around Liberty Island or NYC that ANY aircraft would need special permission to do a flyby?

I haven't flown the Hudson River corridor in awhile, but I'm pretty sure that the only airspace controls there are the LaGuardia/Kennedy/Newark Class B/C airspaces. No restricted/prohibited airspace, but there's some National Park Service "please don't fly below 2000 ft" airspace around the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island.

Dave

Post by **Spike** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:23 pm

airguy wrote: And there lies the problem - you might have one nutjob with a homemade antiaircraft gun or missile trying to take it out as a visible symbol.

Such is the price of our liberties. Some nutjob could do the same thing with a homemade potato gun launching anything he desires, in any city, any state, at anyone.

The price we pay for our liberties here is the reality that anyone at anytime could snuff our lives out on a whim. I am not aiming this comment at you airguy, but our society has turned into a bunch of pansies that insist on "pretending" that we are safe and immune from evil people merely because we make laws and pretend to be civil.

Spike

Brantel · Post by **Brantel** » Fri May 01, 2009 1:09 pm

Amen,

The only way anyone can cause mass panic and damage is to get into an airplane and cause terror...

All airplanes should be banned!!!!

No that is not a good idea so lets spend billions on security and torture all the people moving thru airports (and limit all General Aviation activities) in an effort to protect humanity from the nut cases.

If we do that all the nut cases will go away...correct?

Oh, wait, the Feds don't have to live by their own rules so who is going to protect us from them?

Monday I was driving on the Huntington Beach coastal hwy when I got a call from my wife. I was on the cell for about a minute when a traffic cop mounted on a motorcycle saw me, he ran thru a red light, bobbed and weaved between traffic, came close to running over a pedestrian, and snaked up between two cars all to stop me and tell me I can't talk and drive at the same time.

Glad he was there to keep everyone safe from my inability to do two things at once.

Spike wrote:
airguy wrote: And there lies the problem - you might have one nutjob with a homemade antiaircraft gun or missile trying to take it out as a visible symbol.
Such is the price of our liberties. Some nutjob could do the same thing with a homemade potato gun launching anything he desires, in any city, any state, at anyone.

The price we pay for our liberties here is the reality that anyone at anytime could snuff our lives out on a whim. I am not aiming this comment at you airguy, but our society has turned into a bunch of pansies that insist on "pretending" that we are safe and immune from evil people merely because we make laws and pretend to be civil.

Spike

TomNativeNewYorker · Post by **TomNativeNewYorker** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:44 pm

Thermos wrote:
TomNativeNewYorker wrote:Since I do not fly, can you clarify the procedures for me? Any air force(or military) flight does not have to file a flight plan, get permission to take off, nor check in or follow instructions from air traffic control? I was under the impression that the military only had control in 'military ops areas'
If a military aircraft is participating in the US air traffic control system, they follow the rules like everyone else. And even in military restricted airspace, there's often a lot of coordination going on between DoD air traffic controllers and the FAA.

Thats what I thought, but an earlier post near the beginning of the thread was leading me to believe that the USAF had carte blanche to do whatever they choose to do in the airways. I have workd on military aircraft since the mid-eighties, but once they taxi from our flight line, I dont have a clue as to how what operational procedures they have to follow.

TomNativeNewYorker wrote:....Is there restricted airspace around Liberty Island or NYC that ANY aircraft would need special permission to do a flyby?

Thermos wrote: I haven't flown the Hudson River corridor in awhile, but I'm pretty sure that the only airspace controls there are the LaGuardia/Kennedy/Newark Class B/C airspaces. No restricted/prohibited airspace, but there's some National Park Service "please don't fly below 2000 ft" airspace around the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island.

Dave

I thought after 9/11 I heard restrictions were enacted, but I just dont remember.

RivetBangers.com

Looks like the Fed needs a TFR against itself!

Looks like the Fed needs a TFR against itself!

There are still some terrost's left also.