Engine order

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:35 pm

well, i put a deposit on an Egg H-6 today. it's a refundable deposit that holds my production slot and pricing for two years. hope i'm ready for an engine by then!!

sorry CJ, looks like our twins just separated!

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:04 pm

Well Chad, good thing for you that deposit is refundable!

As you may recall, I was on the Egg bandwagon for a bit. I just don't think it is worth the loot. How much is it anyways??? The straw that broke the camel's back was after speaking with a local builder and hearing his remorse. He doesn't feel "ripped off", merely that he could have done better with an O-320.

Hey, have you seen this site?

http://cddevelopment.com/tcm/index.htm

He has a nice site featuring an H-6 installation.

CJ

tshort · Post by **tshort** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:48 pm

I'll admit I haven't looked into the auto conversions much as I'm planning on going with an IO-360 ... the thing I don't like about them is the few I've seen sound more like lawn mower engines than airplanes.
All in all, I think the -360 series of lycosaurs is about as bulletproof as they come ... at least when you're talking 1940's air cooled engine technology. Not as many problems as the big bore continentals, etc. Simple to work on, A&P's at little airports in the middle of nowhere know them, etc.

just my .02

Thomas

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm

Thomas, that is it in a nutshell. If you blow a sneezelvalve in Outer Ishkabib, the part time A&P will talk to you. You can also likely find a part that you may need on his shelf. I know, Subie parts aren't normally much farther away, but there are many fabbed, custom parts on an Egg engine.

CJ

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:35 pm

i know, i know...i'm prepared to take all the jabing that can be delivered here. it's funny because it depends on who you talk to. i know several guys with egg soobs (one was local, but has since moved), and each LOVE's their engine. i know there are guys out there that have had bad luck. that's the luck of the draw...bad tricks can happen to any engine.

as far as the sound, it is different. i think it sounds more like a little turbine, but that completely subjective, and my opinion. maybe i just THINK it does!

yeah, CJ, tom moore's site is a good one. visited many times to listen to the engine start up!

now, as far as costs are concerned...i'm a spreadsheet freak

and of course, i have one set up for an engine side by side cost analysis. i'll show my numbers, but when you see them, remember these are all for BRAND NEW ENGINES. i won't put a used mill in my new airplane, so that's how i've come to look at it. i'm very aware that lyc's can be bought much cheaper if you're willing to work on it, and pick up where someone left off, or build one from a kit.

the total costs that i've come to includes everything needed to install, and get it in the air. that's all firewall forward components to the tips of the props and spinner. also, for the injected engines, i would use an MT three blade, so these are more expensive than the hartzell two blades (about $2,000 more). the carbed engines would get a FP catto three bladed prop.

remember, EVERYTHING is in the price to get it in the air, even shipping costs...

a H-6 subaru-190hp
$36,240

a lycoming IO-360 200hp
$54,875

an aerosport IO-360 200hp
$49,375

a superior XPIO-360
$42,875

a lycoming O-360 180hp
$35,985

an aerosport O-360 180hp
$31,835

a superior O-360 180hp
$32,235

and just for fun-

a mistral rotary 190hp
$44,560

a powersport rotary 215hp
$45,595

and a jabiru 5100 180hp
$29,695

all the info came direct from the respective websites. the lyc numbers are straight from vans online catalogue. each lyc or clone includes vans firewall forward kits.

so, those are the numbers i've been looking at for several months now. you are right CJ about the deposit being refundable. it's risk free, so i did it to hold the pricing, and slot. can't go wrong there!

i'm happy to send my spreadsheet to anyone who'd like to see it, or disect it, and show me where i may be wrong...

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:47 pm

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!

Where'd ya get them numbers? The www.mattituck site has the IO-390 at $27,600.00 outright and complete with new Unison/Slick magnetos, new Unison/Slick ignition harness, new Unison/Slick spark plugs, new lightweight Sky-Tec starter, new Lycoming fuel pump and a complete new Precision Airmotive SilverHawk EX or Airflow Performance EX fuel injection system.

Add a Hartzell blended for (as I recall) $6,500 or so and it comes to $33,100 with airscrew.

...and that is for a 390. The 360 and 320 is less.

CJ

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:52 pm

...here are some more numbers:

Standard TMX O-360 180 HP Engine for Fixed Pitch
$ 19,490.00

Standard TMX O-360 180 HP Engine for Constant Speed
$ 19,790.00

CJ

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:31 pm

like i said, it includes EVERYTHING. firewall forward kit (hoses, fuel lines, vacuum pump, all the goodies) from vans at $3350-5500. i included electronic ignition, and the mt prop is $8,000, as well as shipping the thing to my house. i wasn't going for the cheapest engines out there, just comparable to the subaru. i had the skytec lightweight starter as an add on, but even if it is included, it's only $220.

i'll send ya the spreadsheet if you want.

you gonna be around tomorrow CJ? i'll call ya.

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:35 pm

Gonna have a busy day friday, so prolly not. Call me over the weekend. Goin to bed now. Talk soon.

CJ

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:42 am

alright, here are some examples straight from my comparison-

Eggenfellner H-6

Engine/Firewall Forward Kit $23,995
Propeller $8,900
James Cowl $950
Engine Monitor GRT EIS from Egg $1,495
Credit for Van's Cowl $-825
Credit for Van's Spinner $-120
Shipping/Crating $1,250
Charges

Options
Hot Water heat pkg $595

Total $36,240

Superior XPIO-360

Engine/Engine Kit $23,400
Firewall Forward Kit $4,725
Propeller MT 3 Blade $8,060
Engine Monitor VM $1,995
Shipping/Crating $1,250
Charges

Options

Dual Lightspeed Plasma III HE $2,320
Inverted oil system $905

Total $42,655

Mattituck IO-390

Engine/Engine Kit $27,600
Firewall Forward Kit $4,725
Propeller Hartzell Blended 3 blade $6,500
Engine Monitor VM $1,995
Shipping/Crating $1,250
Charges

Options

Dual Lightspeed Plasma III HE $2,320
Inverted oil system $905

Total $45,295

that's where my numbers come from guys.

i know it's more than just the engine, but i'm figuring costs compared to the subaru and what comes with that package. all the lyc and clone engine prices are engine and a few accessories, as CJ said. there's still all the other stuff like exhaust, baffling, oil lines, etc. all this comes in the egg package, so that's why the vans firewall forward kit is included in my cost estimates...

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:48 am

Chad, Good for you. Sounds like you've made your mind up. I'm sure this was the hardest decision you've made so far. Other than which plane to build in the first place that is. I wouldn't worry to much what the others think, all of us here still like you

.......I think?. I thought pretty seriously about going with an egg conversion and am still pretty interested in them. Maybe my next plane will have one. The numbers you have in your last post look pretty close to the ones I was able to come up with. I went with an IO-360 kit engine (I'll assemble it) and by the time I'm finished I wont be saving myself much cash. Here are some of the numbers though. ECI IO-360 engine kit $18,600.00, Fire wall foreward ~ $3350.00~ and fixed pitch prop $2,025.00. For a grand total of $24,975. That price is less mags, starter, and alternator. I expect to have at least $4,000.00 more into it by the time I'm done.

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:55 am

Chad, lets level out the performance now. How many hosses in the Egg? Less than 180? Sooooo, enter the O-360, C/S.

Lycosaurus Cost
O-360 $19,790.00
FWF kit $4,725.00
Hartzell $6,500.00

Total $31,015.00

(No engine monitor, it is included in most glass panels anyways. The cowls are kinda a wash anyways, so not included... same with shipping)

Egg engine Cost
Engine $23,995.00
Prop $8,995.00
EIS Monitor $1,495.00
Heater $595.00

Total $35,080.00

Bottom line: Buy the engine you want. It is a decision of want and desire, not mathematics.

CJ

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:21 pm

Egggzactly

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:53 pm

yeah, jim i've been thinking about this for a long time now, and it was difficult. however, this is sort of a risk free venture for me at this point. that deposit is 100% refundable, no questions asked. i made sure of that before i did it. i see this as the direction i want to go, but i can still keep my options open until the day comes for the first payment to egg.

we'll see. lot's of time for development still (for me and the H-6). CJ and i talked this morning about all this, and i think we can all agree that we don't need to try and convince each other to go one way or the other here. we're all building a plane to meet our needs (and wants), so i agree with you...eggzactly!

aerial · Post by **aerial** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:09 pm

My cousin in Eugene, OR has a "world-class" sand-rail with a supercharged Subaru. He says the Subs rule. He's built a couple of buggies, Pinto-powered, etc, but the Sub is head and shoulders above the rest. Porsche quality.

With you guys talking all these big numbers I think we are on a different page. I hope to only have $35K in my whole plane. (period) The only way to do that is to scrounge parts.

Being the newbie that I am, this is the least commited

path I can take. As I progress in pilotage I hope to build another one. I think I am going to like building.

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:28 pm

i'm right there with you aerial! i don't know yet where or how i'm gonna come up with the dough to do what i wanna do engine-wise, but i'll figure it out down the road. LOTS of builders pay for the airplane out of pocket, step by step (me), and then find a good loan product for the engine and avionics installations. i'll probably have to go this route because while i can sometimes round up the $5k for a subkit, there's no way i'm gonna find $25-35k for an engine and all the systems that go with it (not to mention another $10k in the panel!!

)

it ain't cheap, that's for sure, but however you get to the end...i hear it's all worth it!

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:47 pm

I am selling body parts in order to fund the project!

Oooooooo, my spleen!

CJ

jimrobinette · Post by **jimrobinette** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:57 am

So I guess you started with the hair for the emp kit?

captain_john wrote:I am selling body parts in order to fund the project!

Oooooooo, my spleen!

CJ

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:11 pm

good one jim!

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:56 pm

Hahaha, no... the head shaving was an investigation into a rate of climb/aerodynamics performance analysis!

CJ