No longer a Subergin!

A forum to alternate source of power to include Eggenfellner and other conversions.
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cjensen
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No longer a Subergin!

Post by cjensen »

Well, thanks to a very nice RV-9A builder, I got my first Subie (H6) ride at the Rebel's Bluff fly in today!!

All I can say is...WOW!!!! :o I still can't believe how smooth the engine is! It's SUPER quiet, and did I say SMOOTH!!??

It's such a strong engine with the three blade MT prop. The thing pulled like any other Lyc or clone on takeoff roll, and climb out was as impressive as any other RV I've been in. The temps never even climbed in to a caution range, and the fuel burn in cruise was never higher than 7.6gph.

It started at the first push of the button, and shutoff as soon as the IGN was shut down. Run up was a non event.

I have a pic of the airplane, and video that I'll put on You Tube soon.

Simply wonderful!

:wink: 8)
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Post by Lorin Dueck »

CJ -
Can' t wait to see it!!
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Post by Spike »

Great. Do you have performance & weight numbers?
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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

I don't know what his weight was, but I would geuss it was pretty heavy because he had one of the nicest, plush interiors I had ever seen!

Performance-wise, he said he is getting 160mph cruise at 7.3gph. I don't know what his top speed was. The cruise number is close to Van's for the 9A, and he is not getting 200hp out of his H6 due to the lower redrive ratio he has. His new ratio drive is in the mail, and he should get MUCH better numbers with that because he will be able to get about 190hp out of it then if he wants to burn a little more gas.

Climb out was 1800fpm, and take off run was the same as the other 9A's on that field.

The airplane belongs to John Goodman from the Kansas City area.
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Post by cnpeters »

Climbout looks great. But 160mph at 7.3gph sounds a little thirsty compared to the RV-9A CAFE report numbers I recall and those from others flying Lycomings (mainly the O-320/160hp). Was this IAS or TAS? As someone watching all this with great interest, I would love to see more real world data, especially after his new redrive. BTW, do you know if he is going to OSH?
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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

Hey Carl,

160mph is his normal TAS. I don't know what the fuel burn numbers were from CAFE, but I was thinking that 7.3 gals of auto gas was pretty good at 160mph. With the new drive, he should be able to get to 180-185mph with that fuel burn, but it will come at a HP higher than recommended from Van's.

I didn't ask if he'll be at OSH this year. He has about 90 hours on the airplane, so I'm sure if he has the time to go, he'll make it up there.

BTW...DON'T FORGET THAT WE HAVE AN H6 RV-7 COMING FOR THE CHAPTER MEETING THURSDAY!! 8)
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jimrobinette
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Re: No longer a Subergin!

Post by jimrobinette »

Chad,

For the non-Subie types, what kind of cost difference is there between the Sub and Lyc, comparing as apple-to-apple as possibile?

(Jim ducking for cover so CJ doesn't throw eggs at me for possibily aligning myself with the non-lyc crowd. Hey, they need love too!)

cjensen wrote:Well, thanks to a very nice RV-9A builder, I got my first Subie (H6) ride at the Rebel's Bluff fly in today!!

All I can say is...WOW!!!! :o I still can't believe how smooth the engine is! It's SUPER quiet, and did I say SMOOTH!!??

It's such a strong engine with the three blade MT prop. The thing pulled like any other Lyc or clone on takeoff roll, and climb out was as impressive as any other RV I've been in. The temps never even climbed in to a caution range, and the fuel burn in cruise was never higher than 7.6gph.

It started at the first push of the button, and shutoff as soon as the IGN was shut down. Run up was a non event.

I have a pic of the airplane, and video that I'll put on You Tube soon.

Simply wonderful!

:wink: 8)

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

Hey Jim! Really there isn't much of a cost difference by the time you buy a prop and FWF stuff for the Lyc. The prop is the BIG difference. Engine and FWF, both the Egg and the Lcy/Clone are gonna run around $25-28k (as close to apples to apples as one can compare).

There is a HUGE difference in prop selections with the two motors. Electric props run $3-12k, and hydro props run $5-8k for the Lyco's.

There really is no cost advantage to either. I feel they are equally suited, just different in presentation. :wink:
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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

Chad Jensen
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Post by Spike »

cjensen wrote:... he said he is getting 160mph cruise at 7.3gph. I don't know what his top speed was. The cruise number is close to Van's for the 9A,
Vans cruise for the 9 on 160HP is 188MPH at max gross. I would say that his numbers are not close to Van's numbers.
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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

Sorry Spike, I should've clarified a bit more...With the prop down around 1900-2000rpm, which is about 55% power, 160 is close to Van's 166mph at 55%.

He uses 2200rpm on climbout, and normally gets 1400fpm with two up.

:)
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Eggenfelner Engines

Post by deuce01 »

I know there is alot of hype about the Subaru conversions and specificly Eggs. I understand it is a great package and I'm not disputing it but I do have a question or 2.
The price of a Lycoming and Egg are comparable. The Lycoming is a known commodity..you can get new parts, used, remanufactured...experimental...etc for just about anything. This creates a good supply and a bunch of choices.
Egg engines on the otherhand is another story. There are many parts that are made by Eggenfelner or for him. It's the only place you can get some of the itmes. This could create a problem down the road if someone needs parts. He could go out of business, retire...etc. Then what? There is also no competition to keep price down on parts either.
Say for example you have an H6 in a RV 7a. You fly for 3 years no problem. One day you land on a soft field or the nose gear collapses on a bad landing and you have significant damage. Lets say you damage the prop, ok...you can get one from MT or another like one. At the same time the PSRU gets damaged and cracks the motor mount gets bent and a bracket gets driven thru the intake. How do you get parts? Are they available? How long of a wait. Is Eggenfelner still in business. WHAT's it going to COST? These are all custom parts. Obviously the subaru parts are availble from the manufacture and there are sources like dealerships, junkyards, autoparts stores etc to keep prices competitive. But the custom parts ..... are they going to be a problem to get today???? Tomorrow??

I only mention this cause I havent seen any questions or answers regarding this important issue. IT seems that many want to jump to alternative engines and I'm one of them....but I also want to spend my money wisely.

Any one have any thoughts?

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Re: Eggenfelner Engines

Post by cjensen »

deuce01 wrote:Any one have any thoughts?
Of course I do! :wink:
deuce01 wrote:I know there is alot of hype about the Subaru conversions and specificly Eggs. I understand it is a great package and I'm not disputing it but I do have a question or 2.
The price of a Lycoming and Egg are comparable. The Lycoming is a known commodity..you can get new parts, used, remanufactured...experimental...etc for just about anything. This creates a good supply and a bunch of choices.
Yeah, you can get new, used, remaned, experimental, whatever...at an outrageous price. There are a bunch of choices and a good supply, I won't argue that. The parts prices are just out of sight, and one reason I chose the E-Subie.
deuce01 wrote:Egg engines on the otherhand is another story. There are many parts that are made by Eggenfelner or for him. It's the only place you can get some of the itmes. This could create a problem down the road if someone needs parts. He could go out of business, retire...etc. Then what? There is also no competition to keep price down on parts either.
Well, you are partially correct. There are a couple of parts that are made by or for them. The PSRU, intake manifold, and mount are the three that come to mind. Everything else is pretty much off the shelf Subaru. They do not modify the engine in any way shape or form. They do have a new exhuast system coming available, but that can be duplicated by any exhaust shop. Going out of business is probably not going to happen. The order book is sold out for this year, and getting filled in for next year. If he retire's, he has enough people working for him now, that the business could be passed on, but he is quit young, and loves what he does.
deuce01 wrote:Say for example you have an H6 in a RV 7a. You fly for 3 years no problem. One day you land on a soft field or the nose gear collapses on a bad landing and you have significant damage. Lets say you damage the prop, ok...you can get one from MT or another like one. At the same time the PSRU gets damaged and cracks the motor mount gets bent and a bracket gets driven thru the intake. How do you get parts? Are they available? How long of a wait. Is Eggenfelner still in business. WHAT's it going to COST? These are all custom parts. Obviously the subaru parts are availble from the manufacture and there are sources like dealerships, junkyards, autoparts stores etc to keep prices competitive. But the custom parts ..... are they going to be a problem to get today???? Tomorrow??
Shoulda built a taildragger! :wink: Just kidding...Well, the nice thing about the Subaru (or even a rotary for that matter) is that while it is an Eggenfellner sold package, if for some reason we can't get parts from him, there are others on the market, and have been for years. A motor mount, for example, is an easy weld job for a mount maker. It will always cost less to replace something on this motor than any comperable part on a Lycoming, regardless of who makes it. There just are not that many custom parts on the Eggenfellner motor.
deuce01 wrote:I only mention this cause I havent seen any questions or answers regarding this important issue. IT seems that many want to jump to alternative engines and I'm one of them....but I also want to spend my money wisely.
I think it's a great issue to discuss, and you're right, it does not get brought up often enough. At this point in time, I don't think that money spent on either engine is bad money. It may change in the future, but we aren't there yet, and I live for today. :)

Good points!
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Post by cnpeters »

Furthering this discussion, the mounts and exhaust would indeed be easy to fabricate, but that PSRU can't and is gonna' cost thousands. Do you know the cost? Is this something Jan plans on keeping in inventory, as your plane could be down a looong time if not.
And I plan on being at the meeting!!!
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Post by svanarts »

This is just food for thought and not meant to jab at anyone on either side of this argument. Why do we build experimental airplanes, then insist on putting in the same engines that are in certified planes? One reason would be proved technology, but then so is Cessna so why aren't we just building Cessna clones?

Parts-wise it seems like it would be much easier to get parts for a Subaru engine than a Lycoming. Most Napa stores (or Checker, or Kragen, or Auto Zone) would have them. The PSRU is a good point. I guess if you really wanted insurance you could buy two of them and keep one on the shelf just in case. New ones seem to be coming out every year and they seem to be better.

I've never considered an automotive engine in an airplane until just recently. I'm still somewhat concerned about it but I'm 99% on board with the Subaru engine.

I can't wait to read Chad's first flight report. I'm heading over to check out that video right now.
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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

Yep, the PSRU is the biggest expense of the entire package...probably higher in cost to the engine itself! :o Just guessing here, I would imagine the PSRU from Eggenfellner PROBABLY retails around six grand. I'm not gonna worry about it, and I won't stock one on the shelf. There will always be PSRU's available (not just from Eggenfellner), and Jan has always worked with his customers on parts problems. It's no different than the crankshaft in a Lyc or clone...an area of concern for sure for those engines. You wouldn't keep one of those on the shelf either... :)
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Post by Spike »

svanarts wrote:... Why do we build experimental airplanes, then insist on putting in the same engines that are in certified planes? One reason would be proved technology, but then so is Cessna so why aren't we just building Cessna clones?
I dont think the majority of us are building experimental airplanes. Yes, they are in that certification category, but most of us are not building them to experiment, but to learn, enjoy, & have a custom plane. For me its all about the experience, skills learned, & the long term commitment.
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Auto Conversions

Post by deuce01 »

Ok lets take the PSRU for example. Jan keeps coming up with better ones that replace the prior ones...in most cases i guess cuz I'm not entirely sure. But I think I remember the Gen3 one (belt driven) was longer than the previous one which would mean cowl modifications. What if ya had an expensive paint job...this would be a hassle. So upgradeing, this would be factored in...but if you had a gen 2 failure and were ona budget you would want to keep the repair as simple and cheap as possible which would mean get another gen2 and bolt on. No mods needed. If the gen2 was nolonger available...now you are screwed. I believe the new h6s come with a custom ECU also. That is another custom concern.

Anyway you slice it the Auto conversions are custom and complex engines. I understand that Jans package is proven and has a great track record. Hopefully this continues. The unknown is the scarey part. What if they all started having problems down the road. Does the company have the resources to support the customerbase? Look what happened to the other companies like NSI. Those customers lost alot of money and were pretty much stuck. No support...no R&D, no parts.

I'm still undecided and would love to be convinced that the auto conversion was the way to go. This is why I post these questions....to get answers not to bash egg or lycoming. So I hope everyone takes my posts and comments the way I intended them. Oh and I only mention Egg engines because they seem to be the only viable game in town for conversion. I understand Mazda roterys are good as well but I dont seem to be able to find a large following on them.

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Re: Auto Conversions

Post by cjensen »

deuce01 wrote:Ok lets take the PSRU for example. Jan keeps coming up with better ones that replace the prior ones...in most cases i guess cuz I'm not entirely sure. But I think I remember the Gen3 one (belt driven) was longer than the previous one which would mean cowl modifications. What if ya had an expensive paint job...this would be a hassle. So upgradeing, this would be factored in...but if you had a gen 2 failure and were ona budget you would want to keep the repair as simple and cheap as possible which would mean get another gen2 and bolt on. No mods needed. If the gen2 was nolonger available...now you are screwed. I believe the new h6s come with a custom ECU also. That is another custom concern.
Well, the reason the PSRU's have been evovling is to keep up with the engine changes. The 1.82 was a good match for the 4 Cyl, but not the best for the 6 cyl. so they researched new options to get to the powerband better in the E6. The belt drive was a bad experiment, and was the reason I dropped my order last year. I didn't like it, and they announced it right after I ordered an engine last year. After that, they went back to gear drive, and with a much more realistic ratio. I think they realize now that any redrive mods will come at a similar size and shape to provide an upgradable system for previous customers.

The ECU thing is a good point, but it's just electronics. If for some reason the custom one became unavailable or irrepairable, the original ECU's were working fine before they made the switch to their own design. They changed them to get rid of a lot of stuff that was not being used in aircraft applications. I don't know all the details of this though.
deuce01 wrote:Anyway you slice it the Auto conversions are custom and complex engines. I understand that Jans package is proven and has a great track record. Hopefully this continues. The unknown is the scarey part. What if they all started having problems down the road. Does the company have the resources to support the customerbase? Look what happened to the other companies like NSI. Those customers lost alot of money and were pretty much stuck. No support...no R&D, no parts.
I agree that they are a more complex piece of machinery. Easier in operation though. The unknown is a factor for all engines. The future is an unknown regardless of what where talking about. What if all Lycomings began having problems down the road? Wait...that has happened numerous times, :roll: :wink: and they all got thru it. NSI had TERRIBLE leadership, and was a company that was doomed from the start with money hungry owners. Those people are still involved in a long legal battle. Jan has been in the business of converting and flying Subaru's for 18 years. He is not getting rich off of it, and does it because he likes it.
deuce01 wrote:I'm still undecided and would love to be convinced that the auto conversion was the way to go. This is why I post these questions....to get answers not to bash egg or lycoming. So I hope everyone takes my posts and comments the way I intended them. Oh and I only mention Egg engines because they seem to be the only viable game in town for conversion. I understand Mazda roterys are good as well but I dont seem to be able to find a large following on them.
Well, I'm not gonna be the one to convince you or anyone. That's something you can decide on your own. It took me almost two years of research to decide, and these guys here can you tell, I went back and forth NUMEROUS times. I'm glad you are posting the questions you are. Can't learn (or get someone's opinion) without asking! :mrgreen:

The Mazda rotary actually has a HUGE following. The rotary engine newsletter/network, Yahoo groups, Lists, etc...they just are not as vocal. 8)
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Post by captain_john »

Chad,

What are you gonna do with that old Mazda engine you bought to tinker with?

A boat mooring would be a good choice!

:) CJ
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