Mistral

A forum to alternate source of power to include Eggenfellner and other conversions.
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tshort
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Mistral

Post by tshort »

OK, I'm sure I'm gonna go with a lyclone for the -8 ...
But I remember looking at the Mistral engines at OSH last year. They seem like a cool product, well engineered.
Ignoring the cost, what are the downsides? There does not appear to be a FWF kit for the RV series yet, I guess you need a somewhat special exhaust, and I can't find any info at all on their web site about fuel burn.
Anyone have any more info or thoughts?

T.
Thomas Short
Indianapolis, IN (KUMP)
RV-8 wings

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cjensen
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Re: Mistral

Post by cjensen »

tshort wrote:Anyone have any more info or thoughts?

T.
Did ya think I WOULDN'T??? :P

Ignoring costs, I don't see a downside, other than fuel burn. They don't have their "numbers" yet. Francois is very friendly, and is very quick to get back to emails, considering the time difference.

I LOVE this engine, and I would pass up the Eggenfellner Sube for it, if it were not for cost.

FWF, there is not a whole lot you need. They sell most things needed, in addition to the cost of the engine. It uses a standard Dynofocal mount you get from Van's because the rear case has been designed to accept it.

Here is an email from Francois from a year or so ago. I've contacted him since this email, and prices are still the same...
Dear Mr Jensen,

Thank you very much for your interest in our products. May I ask you what aircraft model you are planning to put a rotary on? Depending on the model we may help you further with a firewall-forward kit or engineering assistance.

Our G-190 sells for $31,500. This price includes:

- PSRU

- 70 A alternator

- Starter

- Dual electric fuel pumps

- Digital Engine Management (DEM) system with all required sensors as well as standard display and pilot interface.

Our engines bolt right on standard dynafocal mounts. Chances are therefore good that the engine mount coming with your kit be adequate.

Not included (because partly or totally aircraft-specific) but provided as customized options are:

- Exhaust system, including muffler ($1200-1800)

- Radiator ($400-600)

- Oil cooler ($300-500)

- Plumbing hardware (approx. $400)

Other options:

- Ceramic apex seals with 3,000 hr warranty on the seals $1,480

- 6.5’’ high-quality engine instrument display $1,450

- Prop governor (PCU5000) $1,350

- DEM upgrade package (voice alarms, fuel-flows, etc) $850

- Hartzell propeller (flight tested by Hartzell on Mistral engines) ask for quote

Don’t hesitate to contact me for additional information.

Sincerely yours,

François Badoux, CEO

MISTRAL Engines SA

37, ch. J.-Ph. de Sauvage

CH-1219 Geneva

Switzerland

Tel: +41-22-797 4323

Fax: +41-22-797 4359

Mobile: +41-79-210 5925

email: f.badoux@mistral-engines.com

Web: www.mistral-engines.com
The rotary will burn more fuel at any given power setting, but the lack of moving parts speaks volumes from a maintenance and overhaul perspective.

As you can see in the email, they sell pretty much everything, including exhaust.

The engine ain't cheap...the reason I'm not interested. It DOES use a hydraulic prop though!

8)
Chad Jensen
Missing my RV-7...
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tshort
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Post by tshort »

The stuff I have seen posted elsewhere seems to indicate that the fuel burn had been addressed and was very similar to the Lyco.
It looks like a slick setup. My main concern is that I am building the -8 for the most performance possible - not necessarily as a x-country machine. I don't want to sacrifice speed / climb / etc. and this is really an unknown. I do think these guys have really done due diligence and are building a really well engineered product.

The other thing is that there is just something about the traditional air cooled lycoming that seems right for an airplane. It is straightforward simple technology that you can wrench on yourself at the hangar without too much trouble. All these computers and complex parts make it more like a modern car - probably not something easy to troubleshoot or fix yourself, let alone in the middle of nowhere at a small airport.

I do think that if I end up building a -10 or a Lancair or something as a traveling plane this would be the stuff. I talked with the head dude at OSH last year, and he was a really nice guy - kind of like Allen Barrett. I look like I'm 18 and probably not much like a potential customer but these guys treated me like anybody else and were very helpful.

T.
Thomas Short
Indianapolis, IN (KUMP)
RV-8 wings

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

I think, IIRC, that the fuel burns they have posted are for the 230hp turbo engine they have in the Arrow in Florida. The turbo engine can turn a bit slower to make the same power as a comparable Lyc, so the fuel burn was about the same. Again, that's IF I'm remembering that correctly...

They are a VERY slick setup, and if it were not for the high $$$ purchase price, I'd be all over a 190 in a heartbeat! 8)

I agree with you that the air cooled Lyc is the "feels right" engine, since that's what they are for. Straightforward, yep. Simple, yep. Wrench on it yourself, for the most part. Cost of parts... :o :o :o That's what gets me on the traditional powerplants.

Troubleshooting a rotary/Sube/Chevy/? is as simple as plugging in the OBD scanner, getting the code, run to NAPA/Autozone/Advanced/? and get the part...cheap too! Relatively speaking, of course.

Actually Mistral may be a little different when it comes to working on it since they have so many proprietary parts. That is a bit of a different story there.

They will be at OSH again this year...always worth a visit to their booth. 8)
Chad Jensen
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rv6ejguy
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Post by rv6ejguy »

I like Mistral's package too. If they could reduce the cost a bit, I think it has real possibilities at capturing some of the alternative engine market. Of course we do need to see some actual flight test numbers first.

I like the fact that they are open to independent people using their parts. Some canard guys have bought parts like their intake separately to fit to 13Bs.

BTW with SDS, complete sensor diagnostics are available on the panel mount screen, real time- 10 seconds to diagnose a problem.
Ross Farnham

Flying RV6A turbo Subie
Building RV10 twin turbo Subie

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dons
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Post by dons »

I read their entire web site, and yeah, that is one nice piece of engineering according to what they have posted. The specs are still a little lacking, but I'm sure they will come. I really like the idea of the rotary engine, but there must be a reason why auto makers haven't switched to it if it is "really" that much better.

I keep looking at the Rand Cam engine by http://www.regtech.com/index.html, but I can't see them getting anything in the hp range needed for an rv anytime soon. The idea has been around for a very long time, it isn't new, but it takes the idea of the rotary much farther, however, these guys have a very long way to go imo.
Don Sinclair
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rv6ejguy
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Post by rv6ejguy »

The Wankel isn't better, just different. Has a good power to weight ratio and volume to power ratio but the piston engine has come so far in the last 10 years with VVT, direct injection and technologies like BMWs valvetronic, the Wankel is far behind in fuel economy in typical part throttle automotive use. The Mistral may fair better in aviation use where higher continuous power settings are used.
Ross Farnham

Flying RV6A turbo Subie
Building RV10 twin turbo Subie

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dons
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Post by dons »

I haven't followed the Wankel enough to know about the fuel burn and all the other things you point out, thanks. With there only being a relatively small number of Wankel engines out there, compared to the piston type engine, there is likely still good potential for improvements and innovation, like the Mistral. The piston engine on the other hand has had a lot more engineering years spent on R&D and already achieved most of the easier improvements, it is very well refined piece of machinery. It isn't easy to invest the kind of resources required to develop and take the market away from something as refined as the piston engine, but I firmly believe it will come.
Don Sinclair
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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

The rotary has been around since at least the 60's (correct me if I'm wrong here, Ross), and there has been a TON of development money thrown at the concept. Continental Engines even worked with it for a short while...

I think it has come a long way, and it's a fabulous idea. Just a little inefficient.

My friend Ben Schneider (RV-7) about 30nm from me is doing his own install, and it looks pretty sweet. Can't wait for him to start it AND fly it!

Image

Image

Me and Ben in front of his rotary 7-

Image

The Mistral is THE MOST REFINED version of this to date for aircraft application.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

8)
Chad Jensen
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rv6ejguy
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Post by rv6ejguy »

Me like shiny engine pix. Very nice! Keep us posted on this one.
Looks like he will use a similar rad setup to what I'm planning for my 6A refit.
Ross Farnham

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Building RV10 twin turbo Subie

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

Will do!! Ben is a good friend of mine, and we keep in touch. I hope to get an update from him on starting the engine today...

8)
Chad Jensen
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N258RE
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Post by N258RE »

rotary power is sooooooooo tempting, they sound cool,the cowls look better (to me atleast) but...

it's tough to beat a lycosaurus for power to weight,and fuel efficiency :cry:

with time though the rotary may be it !

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