Nice engine, but what do you do for fuel on cross countries?

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aparchment
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Nice engine, but what do you do for fuel on cross countries?

Post by aparchment »

I think the Eggenfeller engine sounds like a great idea, and I would give it serious consideration if fuel were more readily available at airports. I know you can burn 100LL as well, but that will just lead to deposits in the engine that presumably will necessitate an earlier overhaul.

Any thoughts on this?

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Post by Spike »

I've always wondered this myself. Bet Chad will have an answer. He is the conversion guy, er was, er who knows where he falls with this today. :mrgreen:
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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

yeah, i don't know what page i'm on when it comes to engines... :bang:

i did almost send jan a deposit a couple of weeks ago, but just couldn't bring myself to do it. fuel is a catch 22 for the conversions. i don't think that 100LL will lead to an early overhaul, as they say it will burn it without any major ramifications. depends on what you mean by early overhaul as well. last i knew, the engines where being held to a 1000 hour tbo. now, they supposedly only cost about $3,000 to overhaul, but nobody knows yet, as there aren't enough out there being overhauled.

sorry, got off topic...the need for auto gas presents a large problem if that's all you're willing to burn in the egg. fewer and fewer airports are offering it, so 100LL will almost have to be purchased and burned when away from home. it also presents a problem if your home airport doesn't offer it. now you have to bring it to the airport in gas cans, and that can get annoying and messy (helluva lot cheaper, but annoying).

listen to me! here i am cautioning those who are considering a conversion, when i was on the auto conversion bandwagon/warpath not even a month ago! :lol: seriously though, i have backed off on the idea myself because there are SO many unknowns, and it has to be done right, or it won't work. egg has a great product, and it's still an option for me, but at this point, i'm really leaning back towards an O-360 180hp.

they say that if you want to go auto, you'll work on it more than you'll fly it. if you wanna fly, an airplane engine is the only way to go. probably true. i have a good friend putting a mazda rotary on his -7 (which is what i was planning from the get go on my project), and he is doing more work on that engine just to get it ready to start than you'll do installing AND flying a lyc. i'm anxiously awaiting his first flight (should be this summer) to see how it performs for him. who knows, i may sway back that way, but it'll take a lot of convincing even though i was there a short while ago. :roll:
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captain_john
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Post by captain_john »

Antony,

Maybe when you come down here this weekend Renner Wonnerlich will be in his hangar with his -9A. He has an Egg engine and said that if he had it to do all over again, it would be a Lycosaurus. He particularly dioslikes the electrically controlled propeller. I forget what make that is. He says that Egg orphaned him on that one.

Also, he goes on to say that one appelaing factor was the low price. Now, the Egg price is comparable to a "real" engine. With all that weighing in... it tipped my scales for the Lycosaurus. Besides, I want more HP than the Soob can cough up.

My $0.02...

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

those electric props are MT props, and from what i hear, they are slow to react to inputs. freakin' expensive too!! $8900 from egg, and that's with their quantity discount! :o

i don't know what eggs prices were when a lot of these guys bought 'em early on, but they are definately in the neighborhood, maybe even in the next tax bracket when compared to a lycosaur of the same power (180 or so)! they are expensive, and the package DOES NOT include that electric prop. so the engine comes complete, and ready to run, but not fly. $24k for the engine package, and another $9k for the prop. if i do my math properly to compare the two, the lyco comes out cheaper...unless you want an IO-390 like C "mr. power" J! :wink: there's some serious money in that engine too! :P
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jim_geo
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Post by jim_geo »

huh?

Rotary10RV
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Missing the point guys.

Post by Rotary10RV »

I believe that most of the guys talking about the Egg conversions are missing a point about the price. The current prices are close to a Lyc, but you do need to take into account that you can take that engine home, put it on and START it. No "finishing" kit.
There are several other factors to think about with respect to pricing. First: Eggenfellner has had more customers than his production capability can keep up with for some time. Second: There are two ways to control incoming orders. Refuse an order. Price the service higher.
Egg seems to have taken the second course. The thing is with the higher priced option, you can do additional R&D or increase capacity. Both help the end user.
I am not an Egg user, or customer. I am building a Rotary (Wankel) 3 rotor for my RV-10. I do wonder why everybody is so eager to bash Egg who is the only guy in recent memory to actually provide a reasonable number of FLYING FWF packages. He does continue to update the product, admittedly sometimes by necessity, but at lease he is providing solutions that will work. Most of the other suppliers have either gone under or simply NOT DONE ANYTHING after taking people's money. Think what you will but Eggenfellner's policy isn't any different from Lycs with reference to ADs. Lyc will make the customer foot the bill for anything that they can.
The point is that if you cannot engineer your own alternative FWF package Eggenfellner is one of the few available FWF packages that actually has flying examples to actually compare against. My $.02
Bill

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svanarts
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Post by svanarts »

It didn't sound like anyone was bashing Eggenfelner to me. I have no experience with the engine so I can only relate what I have seen. A friend is building an RV-7A with an Egg in it. He has spent the last year working on plumbing for the engine, changing this and that on the engine, I think the latest is a new computer. Before that it was a new prop. Before that it was a new PSRU. I'm sure it could be a fantastic engine but there seems to be way too much tinkering with it for my comfort.
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Rotary10RV
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How much engineering is too much

Post by Rotary10RV »

I have always said that if you aren't really capable of designing the conversion yourself then conversions are not a good idea. Even an excellent conversion will have a limited number of adoptees. So if your mechanical skills are limited buy a certified engine.
With respect to the original post in this thread, engine fouling caused by leaded fuel, the only problem is if you use an OEM oxygen sensor. The O2 sensors will tolerate leaded fuel for at least tens of hours. If you intend to run 100LL regularly then look to a aftermarket EMS like Simple Digital Systems. I have seen several posts by Ross on here and He makes an excellent system. I have seen it on a customers plane and it works very well. The SDS systems don't use a O2 sensor unless you want to use one as a guage for tuning. So only use mogas to set up and then 100LL for operation. the mechanicals of the engine aren't really bothered by lead unless you have other tuning problems. I ran 100LL in my racing motorcycles in lew of racing gas, with ZERO problems.
Bill

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hydroguy2
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Post by hydroguy2 »

I believe that most of the guys talking about the Egg conversions are missing a point about the price. The current prices are close to a Lyc, but you do need to take into account that you can take that engine home, put it on and START it. No "finishing" kit.
I have always said that if you aren't really capable of designing the conversion yourself then conversions are not a good idea. Even an excellent conversion will have a limited number of adoptees. So if your mechanical skills are limited buy a certified engine.
Bill, I'm confused...it seems these statements conflict each other.
Brian
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Post by weezbad »

i bought a new superior engine and yet to run it and it already needs mags inspections (slicks)and a new float in the carb. the cylinders on some were recalled. (not mine) :oops:
william....don't let it beat you down, you are stronger than you think.

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svanarts
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Post by svanarts »

I guess the bright side there is, thank goodness they are addressing the problems with the engine.
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airguy
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Post by airguy »

svanarts wrote:I guess the bright side there is, thank goodness they are addressing the problems with the engine.
Exactly. You don't think Lycoming and Continental had to make a lot of changes on their engines back when they started production? ANY new product has bugs to work out - look at Dynon and the field reports from the new AP install. It looks like a great product, and the factory is (by all appearances) doing their best to address the issues quickly - but all new products are going to experience some tweaking to get it "right".

If you're not comfortable with tweaking - wait 20 years and then buy it.
Greg Niehues
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Not conflicting

Post by Rotary10RV »

hydroguy2 wrote:
I believe that most of the guys talking about the Egg conversions are missing a point about the price. The current prices are close to a Lyc, but you do need to take into account that you can take that engine home, put it on and START it. No "finishing" kit.
I have always said that if you aren't really capable of designing the conversion yourself then conversions are not a good idea. Even an excellent conversion will have a limited number of adoptees. So if your mechanical skills are limited buy a certified engine.
Bill, I'm confused...it seems these statements conflict each other.
Brian,
I don't consider those statements conflicting at all, just different ideas in the same vein. The comment that the Egg engines are ready to run in the crate is true. They (Eggenfellner) run the engines attached to the skid, (supported in the vertical position of course), to test the engine prior to shipment. This isn't with a prop attached, just a operational test.
That said, I feel that even the Egg conversion should only be attempted by someone with good mechanical and engineering skills. With all due respect to Egg and other conversion engine builders every install is "new" and needs a watchful eye backed up with the knowledge to realize when something will hold up.
(WARNING Anecdote Alert!) In my own experience I found out how dangerous wind blast can be when running a Formula C racing car. The blast caused a sawed thru a battery cable with a HEAVY cover and wore out a grommet in a penetration through the chassis monocoque. The resulting fire removed the car from the race while running second and dicing for first. (drat!) The point is that I thought the cable was amply tied down. I was wrong! Now I know.
Bill

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Post by weezbad »

svanarts wrote:I guess the bright side there is, thank goodness they are addressing the problems with the engine.
i guess, but then if i would have started using it when i got it i would have had several hours on it by now. :oops: oh i just bought 8 qts of oil and a filter from the FBO....80 bucks. :o man i need to plan better. :bang:
william....don't let it beat you down, you are stronger than you think.

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svanarts
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Post by svanarts »

Greg picked up on my point. Every product is going have growing pains. If I am an early adopter of any product I should expect there to be some bugs. But since I live in poverty most of the time I don't buy anything that might cost me more money in the short or long run. So I tend to stick with only proven technology.
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