What I am thinkin'...

A forum to discuss installation of avionics such as GPS, NAV & COMM radios, audio panels, auto pilots, etc.
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captain_john
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What I am thinkin'...

Post by captain_john »

Sooooo, Um...

Here is the panel I like as of late:

Image

Tell me, before I spend any money on it...

What do you think about it?

It is fairly standard and I probably won't deviate much from it aside from some brands and models.

Do ya like it?

Do ya have any input?

How could I make it better?

:roll: CJ
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cjensen
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Re: What I am thinkin'...

Post by cjensen »

captain_john wrote:What do you think about it?
Ummm, looks expensive...
captain_john wrote:Do ya like it?
YEP!!
captain_john wrote:Do ya have any input?
I really like the simple look/layout. If I were going EFIS, it looks exactly the way I would picture mine.
captain_john wrote:How could I make it better?
Um, $70,000 for a G900 is about all you could do...

8) 8)
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aparchment
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glideslope

Post by aparchment »

CJ

I would move the glideslope/cdi closer to the pilot. I think it is easier to read than the EFIS, so it might as well be closer.

My .000000002 cents worth.

AP

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Post by captain_john »

Hmmm, yup... I was considering swapping it with the VSI!

With the VSI on the bottom right, things appear more "standard". Maybe placing it beneath the EFIS?

HEY! I just thought you were going electric and not steam! This came as a shocker to me!

:o CJ
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ILS

Post by pgroell »

Well I would get rid of the vertical card compass , you have one compass in the EFIS, one standby in the GNSXXX and one on the right side that should be enough.
And then you will be able to put the ILS under the EFIS, it has to be in your visual scanning, I think the place you put it is too far on the right to be used correctly.

My 0.02 euros

Pascal

Edit : And I have been told vertical card compasses don't work that well when installed in the panel.
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Re: What I am thinkin'...

Post by Spike »

captain_john wrote:What do you think about it?
Well, since you did ask ... Two things stick out in my mind, the first is that the lack of symmetry would drive me nutz, but that is a personal thing. The second thought is that the panel looks to me like you couldn't make up your mind if you wanted steam gauges or glass. The only instrument missing from a steam gauge package (outside of the differences between a true AI & the AP presentation) is a DG. You have that covered with a vertical compass, in addition to the normal compass that is so far over to the right its useless to fly by :-D

Do ya like it?
Not my first pick, but then it doesn't need to me, its your plane.
Do ya have any input?
Id work on symmetry. I would also question the need of the second engine monitor since your primary display has that information. If you are using that as a backup of your AHRS data then you dont need the steam guage backups. Id eleminate the second engine monitor and repackage. Something like this comes to mind:

Image

Im sure I missed something here, but I only had 4 minutes to work on it.
Um, $70,000 for a G900 is about all you could do...
Its $67K thank you very much, and boy is that thing talking to me. Im haunted
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Anonymous

Post by Anonymous »

CJ, Why do you need the analog VSI? Isn't VSI included somewhere in the glass? If so, I guess the question is if you really need a VSI to do an approach on your back-up instruments? I think rough guess pitch/power setting would get you in the ball-park on a non-precision approach. Just my thoughts. -Jim

Edit 1: P.S. From my memory, the VSI is not required for IFR flight at all.

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Post by cjensen »

captain_john wrote: HEY! I just thought you were going electric and not steam! This came as a shocker to me!

:o CJ
If this was for me...I am going round. I have my entire panel already, except radios and an engine monitor (holding off on that until the engine choice is made...). No gyros for me, just pitot/static gauges, and a TC. Day/night VFR. :wink:
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Post by captain_john »

All, I appreciate the input!

Pascal, the thing on the far right is a whiskey compass. It is hard to go wrong with a whiskey compass. Underneath the EFIS I am planning a DG. The DG will indicate rate of turn in an instrument failure.

Spike, please define symmetry. It looks pretty symmetrical to me. It mocks the standard 6 pack and that is for standardizarion. That is why I laid it out that way. I made my mind up on glass. I would like steam for backup because that is what they do in certified stuff and I subscribe to the logic. A few pounds sacrificed for safety sake is a small price to pay, I think. The reason for the 2 EFIS displays is for right and left pilot seating. With a push of a button, the screens can swap and so do the PIC and SIC roles.

fehdxl, The VSI is the backup for pitch information. Cheap and easy.

Chad, I did think you were going electronic instuments! I dunno why.

Anthing else? I am still open to suggestion!

:roll: CJ
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Post by captain_john »

Sorry, duplicate post!

:roll: CJ
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Post by Spike »

I can't define the symmetry in a way that would convey my initial reaction. Part of it was that the two sides of the radio stack didn't seem to agree with me all that much. Maybe its an organizational thing. Maybe its the grouping more than anything. You are correct more or less in that you have it laid out in a "6 pack" style, but its not a functional "6 pack". The reason that layout was accepted was because it causes your eyes to move the least amount and has the data closely arranged. Have you looked at your layout and tried out your scan?

I did and my eyes have to really jump around alot. For instance, if everything is working, the primary instruments are going to be the EFIS, and CDI, and maybe the engine monitor on the right side if it is displaying things that the primary is not. That means that while tracking a VOR or flying the needle on a GPS flight plan, I have to scan from one side of the instrument panel to the other. If I want more engine data than is on the primary EFIS, I have to look at the other display on that side also.

If for some reason the EFIS' go south and I have to make use of the backup gauges, I have to scan a large lateral area to jump over the big EFIS right smack in the center. To me they are not functionally grouped.

- John
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Post by jimrobinette »

CJ,

Like someone above said, I think you can't decide between electric and steam. You basically have both. My panel will be glass with only pitot-static. With a turn needle/ball and compass, along with the p-s instruments, you have everything you need for IFR backup IF (and that is a big IF) you glass goes down while in the goo.

Being an Aviation Safety Officer in the Navy, I understand risk management, and taken to an extreme, we never fly. On the other hand, we have the minumum equipement required for IFR flight. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

How much time will you be in actual IFR? I would bet not many hours in a year, if you are anything similar to the standard GA IFR pilot. And during that small amount of time, what are the chances of your glass failing? If you design a good electrical system like we learned at Bob's course, then you can take electrical failure out of the equation. So, you have to look at the reliability of your glass system. MTBF? Just hope it doesn't fall during you few IFR hours a year. IFR flight is the ulitmate risk question in my book. Even more so than engine failure. If your lump fails on you, but you can navigate your way down from the goo, you can still coast and dead stick it in. If your engine is running and you lose your instruments in the goo, your chances are not quite as good. That is why my risk management if mostly focused on actual IFR flight.

I would ask myself why I have a wet compass. If you have any intention of using it during IFR, you are just asking to auger in while in the goo, after you get the leans throwing your head all the way over to the right to look at your heading. :oops: In the EP-3E, we have it in the center of the flight station, which is about the same distance over that it will be in the -7, but if we are doing partial panel work we are locked on turn needle/ball and VSI for pitch and roll. It is the FE or co's job to call out your heading off the wet. Keep your eyes on your primary instruments! If you plan on your steam heading indicator to be your backup, get rid of the wet. That being said, you can never have too much redundancy, but it does come at a cost, and if you spend the money on an instrument, put it where you can use it (physical placement).

Seems a little over redundant, but ......Overall I like it, I just wouldn't want to pay for it! :)

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Post by captain_john »

Hmmmm, okay...

One thing that I took for granted is that you know that CDI 1 will be incorporated into the EFIS. The AF3400 has that capability. That being said, I now plan on moving the CDI 2 underneath the EFIS display.

As far as time in the goo, I know this will be primarily a VFR Night machine most of the time. MTBF shouldn't be a concern as the risk will be minimal due to the (very) limited exposure to it!

No doubt, this IS a belt and suspenders approach, as it incudes both electronic and steam. That was the intent. Essentially the primary scan will be the EFIS, expanding to the steam only in a failure mode.

The whiskey compass is something I just "need". I put it so far away because I didn't want EM interference. I suppose one on top of the glareshield would be a better decision?

Thanks again for all your input!

:) CJ
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Post by N200PF »

CJ you and I must be intergalactically connected... Here is a first swipe I took at mine a few months ago before AFS came out with their new EFIS displays...

Image

I'm sure it will change 100 times in the two years it will take me to get to this point but it's fun to think about between wing ribs!

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Post by captain_john »

N200PF wrote:CJ you and I must be intergalactically connected...
Either that or we suffer from the same illness!

Nice panel! Looks like my first one too!

I am sure mine will change a bit from now 'til then.

Amazing how fast stuff comes out, huh?

I just was tinkering a bit more on it. I put an AI beneath the EFIS. If I do that, it'll be electric.

8) CJ
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Post by N200PF »

NO DOUBT!!!

I'm just anxious to see what replaces the 430/530 next year!!! I imagine we'll see a GNS440/540 that has the same "sectional overlay" cabability as the 496 and the processors to handle weather and traffic over the top of that. It will look a lot nicer than the black background they have to stick with today based on the "old school" processors in the 430/530.

- Peter

PS - We fly behind a 430 today and it's GREAT but my 396 actually does more. ...can't image Garmin would let that stand for too long.
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Post by svanarts »

I'd lose the VC compass, the whiskey compass, the steam gauges. Maybe go with a set of small analog instruments below your EFIS; airspeed indicator and altimeter. I'd also move the switches to the bottom. Stuff that high on the panel may be difficult or awkward to operate. Plus switches on the top of the panel looks...I dunno...Russian or something.

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Post by captain_john »

:lol:

HA! It is actually a southern idea! I think Doug from VAF is one of the biggest proponents of the switches at the top of the panel. It is for maintenance purposes. In a tip up, it facilitates service-ability. I also like having all the switching (audio panel and power) in one location.

Scott, tell me... why would you lose the heading indicators? There is nothing more simple, less expensive and relaible than a whiskey compass?

Besides, it is really cool to have a traditional, simple and nostalgic instrument like a whiskey compass adjacent to the latest in electronic avionics.

I agree, this IS a belt AND suspenders approach. I do think it is a sensible IFR panel, even if it never makes it into the milk bottle!

:mrgreen: CJ
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