Mind bender...for me anyway

[cjensen]

i can't figure this one out. if i run my air drill straight from the compressor (no filter or lubricator), i can get max rpm at 90psi w/o a problem. now, if i run the hose to the filter/regulator/lubricator, i lose rpm. i get a sharp spike of initial full rpm, then it drops down with no load to a constant but slower rpm. here's the setup if you haven't seen it.





what i don't get, is that i know the filter-lube is clear from LOTS of air pressure going through w/o a restrictor or cap on the end. the coiled air line is 3/8 line, and is free flowing. the regulator is cranked up to the max, only allowing as much air as regulated from the compressor's regulator (90 psi). what am i missing here?? do you just lose air flow using a filter-lubricator? i have to have the compressor reg. cranked up to 110-120 psi to get any usable rpm...

[jim_geo]

It sounds like your dealing with general friction within the system. Your system may have a lot of eddy currents being created also adding to the problem but usually that won't be all of it. One answer may be to move up to larger sized equipment. The 3/8ths is in and of itself restrictive over any distance. One thing to try first is get rid of the coil and hard plumb some 1/2" tubing to the regulator. I have a feeling that would be a significant change. Your system looks like a pretty nice set up.

[Spike]

Sounds like you have a flow problem. What is the regulator rated for as far as CFM? Plenty of pressure in a static system doesn't mean much. What you want is that amount of pressure while you are flowing air.

-- John

[avaviat]

Your regulator is restricting the air flow. It has the right pressure, but not the right CFM. It is hard to find regulators that flow freely, unfortunately. MSC has some in the $60 range IIRC...I don't use one myself.

As food for thought:
I run my compressor and main hoses at 145PSI. There is a large free-flowing air filter on the tank, but that's the only restriction. I then have whip hoses, one of which has a regulator on the "floor" end. That way I can select between regulated and unregulated, and I can swap things around as needed. Unfortunately, this regulator doesn't flow all that freely either, but I mainly use it for pressure-based tools like the rivet squeezer and pressure-sensitive tools like paint sprayers.



I oil individual tools... like to keep my lines clean.

BTW: The foot pedal is one I bought from Harbor Freight for $20 or so a while ago. It has quick disconnects on it so I can patch it in to any tool and use it as a normally-open or normally closed control.

[cjensen]

so do i even need the regulator on the filter/lube system? if i remove that, and just use the pressure regulator from the tank, i should get better airflow. i can just run an adapter between the filter and lubricator, and get my flow back?

it's got to be the regulator then. i've run the drill using the coil line, and i get full rpm from it, so i can't see that being a problem...maybe i'm wrong.

[avaviat]

You can remove the regulator. You will get better flow. A regulator is required for some things. It makes life more pleasant for other things. You may not be doing anything that needs a regulator though.

If it was me, I'd remove the regulator and do one of two things: Pick up a pair of quick disconnects (male and female) and hook them to the regulator so I could clip the regulator in when I needed and remove it when it slowed me down... or I'd replace it with a higher capacity regulator.

Maybe one of these:
http://www.coilhose.com/uploads/products/Page%2061.pdf

There is a table on that page which, if I read it correctly, says that for a 3/8" inlet model at 10 SCFM the pressure drop is 2PSI.... shouldn't be a problem.

You can get for ~$50 from mscdirect.com (also a good place to get scotch-brite pads ). I'm sure there are 1000 equivalent regulators from other vendors, that's just one I was considering getting (though I'd get the 1/2" because that's how my compressor is plumbed) so I could post a link without doing any research.

[captain_john]

Chad, I think that everyone agrees that you are in need of volume, not pressure. Somewhere there is a bottleneck.

Is that FRL setup 1/4" or 3/8"? If I were you, I would keep the secondary regulator for 2 reasons.

1) To keep the tank pressure up and the cycling down.
2) So you can dial in the correct (useable) pressure without removing the silencer apparatus.

I don't see what line you are using from the FRL to the tool. Is it 3/8" and a reasonable length? A 3/8", twenty five footer should be fine for now.

Don't tell me it is a 1/4" coily, ten buck, dealie bob! That would be your problem right outta the gate!

Oh ya... and I would use a straight 3/8" six footer from tank to FRL like everyone else says.

CJ

[avaviat]

The captain has a good point actually. Can you hook that yellow coil directly to your tool hose? Bypassing the FRL? That would rule out the hoses as a problem. Or show they were the problem. It looks from the picture like the tool hose is not one of the infamous yellow coilys.

I have not had any problems using air drills on 1/4" hoses up to about 25'. Honestly, I've never *tried* using 1/4" hoses much longer than 25'. My shop "feed hose" is this:



(33' 1/2" hose on spring reel $53 from costco, 3-headed quick-release $10 from Harbor Fright, short 1/2" feed hose from compressor to reel $10 Harbor Fright, concrete anchors $2 from Lowes )

I drag the end out to wherever I'm working and hook whip hoses (1/4", seen in previous picture) up to run my tools. The whip hoses are the $18 cleaveland light whips with mini rectus quick disconnects.... which I thought were going to be bogus (no better than anything else) when I ordered them but I'm actualy impressed with how well they work.

[jim_geo]

I entirely agree with John here. You gotta get rid of that coil. At least least from the pressure side of the regulator. You'll need to be able to dial in pressure for your tools. If it can be done I would suggest attaching your regulator directly to the tank.



This regulator stays at about 95 PSI most of the time. I have another regulator at the work bench that I dial in the pressure I want to use.

[cjensen]

ok, i understand what everyone is saying here...but what about the regulator that is part of the compressor? it's a two gauge system with regulation dial built in. i leave that set at 90psi. so, why would i need the regulator in the FRL? The regulator in the FRL can only reduce flow further since the one on the tank is set at 90. if i need more (don't know why i would, but...), i have to turn up two regulators. doesn't make sense.

on a side, i had some sort of failure of my L in FRL tonight...after drilling for a while, something inside let loose, and sent a TON of oil to the drill, and spit it out EVERYWHERE!!

so, after that huge mess, here's what i'm thinkin' of doin'-

i am going to hook the filter directly to the compressor without the R and L, and run my 3/8" hose (25') straight to the tool and lube the tool myself. i did look at the FRL closer, and it's set up for 1/4", so that's probably where i'm losing my volume. the coil isn't going to be used for now. i have run both the hoses together, so it's not the coil, but with this setup, i don't need it.

shoulda just bought the filter...

[avaviat]

Chad, your lube experience blows....so to speak....

This is just me, so take it for what it is worth, but...

The craftsman's regulator (based on the photos I've seen) is all the regulation you need for now. The yellow coil hose is fine (it is 3/8" after all) though I find the coil hoses annoying and you probably will too after a while. The most constricting part of the 1/4" FRL set-ups I've dealt with was the regulator, so pulling the regulator would probably allow you to keep using the filter without much constriction. Can you return the FRL? It blew its oil out so it is obviously defective.

These things are great:
http://yardstore.com/index.cfm?action=V ... ItemID=490
Next time you order something from The Yard, pick up a couple.

These things are also very useful:
http://yardstore.com/index.cfm?action=V ... &ItemID=54
But you can get something that does exactly the same job for $7 from harbor freight.

Put one of those swivels on each of your tools. Then put one of the oilers on the swivels of the tools you use most frequently. Then put a quick disconnect on the oiler. You'll end up with a few tools that look like this:



That's a $7.49 die grinder with a $7 swivel, a $6 oiler, a $1.50 fitting...and a little scotch-brite wheel... that's right, $14.50 in fittings on a $7.50 tool... but it is very convenient, and it will last forever...

After all, how many air tools are you going to have?

[jim_geo]

Sounds like you're solving your problem Chad. Quarter inch seems to be where lines end up anyway. Try running a larger diameter hose to the second regulator and then run a shorter hose to your tools. Keep the hose between the regulator and tools under 10' if possible.

[captain_john]

Chad, things will be most efficient (timewise) if you have 2 ports available to plug into.

One at 90 PSI and one you can regulate down to 25-50 psi for riveting. The second one is the one you will need often for riveting. Having the correct PSI that doesn't waiver is the key to pretty rivets.

For that, you don't need much volume.

For the drill, die grinder and any large air motor, you will need volume. Put another port directly off the tank ragulator (set to 90 PSI) for these tools.

CJ

[cjensen]

thanks for all the replies guys! whether you think you did or not, you really helped me out here!

regarding the items from the Yard...that is my favorite tool store!! i hadn't seen that little oiler before! i'm ordering several today. i do use swivel regulators already from the Yard. thanks for the tip on the oiler jon!

i think what i may end up doing is installing the filter right off the compressor followed by two ports, one going to the other regulator, and one straight to the high volumn tools. thanks CJ!

[acfttools]

A number of people seem to have come to the same conclusion, but, just a suggestion, you might want to start with the tool manuals themselves. Based on our experience, rivet guns, drill motors, pneumatic squeezers, etc., etc., all call for a minimum 1/4" ID hose to obtain proper operation. The "typical" lightweight hose has a 3/16" ID.

Another factor is that the regulator at the compressor WILL NOT trap all the moisture coming through it, especially at the higher pressures. Our experience is that you'll leave a lot of moisture in the lines themselves. That moisture condensates when the lines aren't in use. Simple enough to see if you put another filter downstream at the point of use.

Bottom line, you'll get much more accurate pressure and filter more effectively by installing a regulator at the point of work.

Blue Skies!

[cjensen]

i solved my air supply problem today by taking several pieces of advise offered here!

i hooked the filter right off the compressor and ran a "T" off of that to split the lines in to one for drilling/die grinding/other high volume tools, and the other line runs to the second regulator for riveting.



i did use the coil hose again off of the filter to regulator because it is 3/8 hose, and it works fine. you can see in this pic the upper coil hose going to the regulator, and the lower hose coming out the bottom.



here's the mounted regulator connected to the riveting hose.



and the hoses. i'm gonna get a hose reel to collect these.




the volume is back up on the drill, and the squeezer and rivet gun work great off the new hose. i did order enough "mini" oilers to connect straight to each tool from the yard store.

thanks everybody!!

[captain_john]

Nice setup bruthah Chad!



Glad to hear it is all working out for ya!

CJ