Lights have been decided

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JohnR
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Lights have been decided

Post by JohnR »

I just got back from an hour or so of night driving in my truck. Every since I got it I had thought it had great headlights. HA! :o

We picked up a different car the end of last month and I have been driving it. It has the Xenon headlights and tonight was the first I had driven the truck or anything since driving the new car. I could not believe the difference! Last Saturday night I drove in the car until 2:00 AM getting home from vacation and never thought about it at all. Tonight when I pulled onto the two lane I thought something was wrong with the lights on the truck. If you have never been behind the Xenon lights you really need to go for a ride in something with them. They are amazing! :thumbsup:

I will have Xenon bulbs in my plane even though they are rather pricey, I think they are worth the difference or maybe more. Now I have to figure out what it takes to put one in my motorcycle. :roll:
JohnR
RV-7A - Fuselage - SOLD, just not supposed to be
Numbers 6:24 - The LORD bless thee, and keep thee

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RV9inIowa
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Post by RV9inIowa »

Hi John - are the Xenon bulbs the same thing as HID? I bought the round duckworks since they can be easily updated to HID someday. Boy those are expensive - make the fancy fuel caps I sprung for look cheap!
Dave G.
Building N149DG RV-9A Finish Kit, O-320-E2A, Dual AFS-3500
Flying the restored N3689Q, the lowest time airworthy Beech Super III.

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JohnR
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Post by JohnR »

Yep, they are the same. HID stands for High Intensity Discharge and Xenon refers to the gas inside the bulbs. Your right they are not cheap but I'm now a believer and feel they would be worth it.
JohnR
RV-7A - Fuselage - SOLD, just not supposed to be
Numbers 6:24 - The LORD bless thee, and keep thee

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cnpeters
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Post by cnpeters »

While Xenon bulbs imply the HID type (a gas tube with an electrode at each end that requires a ballast and igniter), there are Xenon filled halogen bulbs all over the market. The latter slightly raise the Kelvin color closer to the HID's typical 4100K for OEM auto applications, but they are just halogens. Marketing hype on a lot of dot.com sites makes it difficult to discern sometimes.
Xenon HID lights will have an electronic box called a ballast, and will have either an external igniter (the D1S and D1R bulbs) attached to the bulb, or will be built into the ballast as most are. For aircraft applications, the various vendors out there typically use the D1S bulb found in some Audi's, Porche - they have the igniter in the bulb base, and supposedly radiate far less RF on light ignition due to the lack of sending the 20,000 plus volt initial charge down a wire from ballast to bulb like on D2R/S types. I never could find an application where the more common D2R/S bulbs were tried to see if noise was an issue.
HID bulbs are rated in Kelvin in terms of their color - around 2800-3000 is warm (halogen), while 4100K is what most OEM autos are, but there is a big market in the Fast and Furious crowd for the more blue higher Kelvin bulbs, up to 8000K. Stick with 4100K if you are rolling your own. Another thought is to provide contrast against a daytime or dusk bluish sky, the warmer the light, the more contrast. Here, a halogen of similar luminosity may have some superiority, but I could not find objective data. I found anecdotes where pilots saw the warmer halogen easier than the HID when there is ambient light out, but that problem can be solved by using a wigwag (and yes, HID's can run on a wig wag - there are various vendors that sell them). At night, there is no issue - a 35w HID will rock.
In terms of reflectors, you can try and adapt a common PAR36 reflector (PAR=parabolic aluminized reflector, the 36 refers to the diameter in 1/8 inch increments - 36/8ths=4.5 inches in diameter). This reflector is used in the Duckworks kits that are used in the leading edge. Builder Pete Howell in Texas converted a set of these reflectors (which you can buy alone from Duckwork's), and got the bulbs/ballasts from an auto via ebay. Current prices on the latter for 2 lights are over $250, and figure $80 in parts from Duckworks (reflectors, mounting plate, lens).
Creativair and Van's/Duckworks sell a small HID light that is 2 inches in dia based on the MR16 size used in many commercial and residential applications - it is designed to fit in the wingtips. Those have the igniter built into the ballast I believe, but Creativair's owner wrote that he wasn't aware of noise issues.
Overall, I agree with the beauty of HID lights. The light is close to the sun in Kelvin, has superior road visibility (I've been driving behind them for 3 years in my Acura), uses only 35 watts in most apps to achieve more brightness than even 100watts in a halogen, and has a long lifespan, perhaps 3000 hours. Disadvantage is the cost, and a little more weight due to the ballasts (maybe 1.5-2 ilbs for a pair).
Overall, I have not concluded which way to go, but am leaning on converting some PAR36 reflectors with an auto salvage HID bulbs/ballast, but frankly the cost is not much better than the Creativair MR-16 style ones. The latter have a relatively narrow spot pattern (12 degress if I recall), and I want a taxi light with 35 degrees or so, while the landing can be more of a spot (8-15 degrees). I may buy some offroad halogens (PIAA, Hella, KCLites etc) that have published spot patterns and convert to HID. Still researching the whole thing. Then there are LED position lights...another topic! :roll:
Carl Peters
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Post by Spike »

I picked up 2 duc works kits. One HID for the landing light, and one regular for the taxi light. I have to say the kit looks quite comprehensive. Go for it John. We can dog fight using our {Dr Evil voice}"laser beams"{/Dr Evil Voice}.
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smithhb
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Post by smithhb »

For those that are interested, I am testing some HID lights for use in my RV-9. You are welcome to follow along in my R&D testing and even suggest tests I can run by dropping me an email.

http://www.flightinnovations.com/R&D.html
Bret Smith
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Blue Ridge, GA
http://www.FlightInnovations.com
APRS Tracking: http://www.flightinnovations.com/tracking.html

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cnpeters
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Post by cnpeters »

Brett,
I would love to hear more about your research. I checked into the website you mentioned, but they do not provide much info on the fog light kit (out of stock) or driving retrofit. One concern is the longevity on these - there are dozens of retrokit suppliers out there, and I could only find warnings that there is a difference in quality with their ballasts vs. those that are OEM auto. Unfortunately, it was hard to find a real data, perhaps since this the technology is relatively new. For our RV's, we'll probably have to just experiment a bit for the roll-your-own crowd.
Carl Peters
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http://www.mykitlog.com/cnpeters/

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smithhb
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Post by smithhb »

Carl,

You are right about how difficult it is to get reliable info. Almost all of the HID lights/kits are manufactured overseas and the US suppliers have a heck of a time getting consistent shipments.

The folks I am working with have graciously let me have two units that met my specifications for my own (unbiased) testing. My original specifications were:
- totally enclosed lamps
- glass lenses
- 50W ballasts
- low to no EMI/RMI
- narrow beam dispersion

They searched and shipped me the two lamps I now have. I just received them yesterday and was pleasantly surprised when I saw them. I just started testing so I hope to have more info shortly. I also plan to run by the airport this weekend an get some shots of the lights shining down the runway.

If all goes well, I am expecting these lights to be available for <$250.00 per pair. No one will be able to beat this price! Of course, this is a Rivetbangers member exclusive... :wink:
Bret Smith
9A Flying (N16BL)
Blue Ridge, GA
http://www.FlightInnovations.com
APRS Tracking: http://www.flightinnovations.com/tracking.html

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Post by Spike »

Hmmm, wish you had all this figured out a few months ago 8)
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cnpeters
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Post by cnpeters »

Brett,
In looking again at their website, the fog in wide dispersion is 100+ degrees and won't shine too far down the taxiway. A bit much, but would be nice and would clearly reach both sides of a taxiway/runway. The narrow beam would work as a landing light. It will be interesting to see if their is any noise on the comm, especially at light ignition. I am at least two years off from a point where i have avionics and an electrical system in place. Will you be testing in an aircraft soon? Or will you be bench testing for RF noise?
These have the igniters built into the ballast, and if these don't produce much noise, then it opens up the world of D2R/S type setups, which are more numerous. Currently, commercial vendors are selling only the D1S type bulbs with the igniter built into the base. In looking at pics of Creativair's MR-16 type HID's, those seem to be an exception also. Keep me/us posted - I'm still researching, and will post further ideas/efforts as they come along.
Thanks.
Carl Peters
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N92RV (reserved)
Fuselage
http://www.mykitlog.com/cnpeters/

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JohnR
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Post by JohnR »

Carl and Bret, thanks for the great information. I don't know exactly what all is involved in getting these HID lights to work in the plane but I want them. Before I had thought they were way overpriced but they have made me a believer.

Bret I will be watching for info posted from you on these. I'm finding this all quite interesting. 8)
JohnR
RV-7A - Fuselage - SOLD, just not supposed to be
Numbers 6:24 - The LORD bless thee, and keep thee

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dons
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Post by dons »

I agree, great info on what is behind these HID lights, thanks.
Don Sinclair
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smithhb
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HID R&D

Post by smithhb »

I have updated the R&D page again...

http://www.flightinnovations.com/R&D.html

I am really impressed with these lights. The lights they shipped me to test came with the 30W ballasts and are super bright! The final product will come with the 50W ballast...I can't imagine the brightness.

Guys, there is NO COMPARISON between HIDs and halogen lights. HIDs are like mini spotlights.

Back to testing!
Bret Smith
9A Flying (N16BL)
Blue Ridge, GA
http://www.FlightInnovations.com
APRS Tracking: http://www.flightinnovations.com/tracking.html

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cnpeters
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Post by cnpeters »

The 50 watt ballasts will make for hellacious light. The bulb is the same, just a higher voltage through the xenon gas to brighten it. The flip side is a shortened lifespan - by a third from one source (XeVision). See this article from aviationconsumer.com comparing commercial aircraft HID systems, and note the XeVision 50 watt system comments:
http://www.preciseflight.com/ufiles/06M ... e_Main.pdf
Carl Peters
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smithhb
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Post by smithhb »

Carl,

The real issue is going to be sheilding from EMI/RMI. The lights I am demoing have the H3 bulbs and do make some noise (EMI) at up to 5 feet. It is apparent they have minimal, if any, shielding. I am going to play with trying to shield the cable between the ballast and the lamp to see if it can be improved.
Bret Smith
9A Flying (N16BL)
Blue Ridge, GA
http://www.FlightInnovations.com
APRS Tracking: http://www.flightinnovations.com/tracking.html

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