RivetBangers.com

Well, as some of you have read in another thread, there are some changes in my views towards engines...again...for the 755th time.

All I can say is that me and my big mouth get so wrapped up in an idea, that it takes over. I have to admit that I'm back toward a neutral status about engines in general.

I am not cancelling my order for an E6 Subaru, BUT, I am going to continue my research on which one is really the right thing for me to do.

I apologize for sounding like a broken record around here...try being my wife!

Some events that lead to this were...first, an email was sent to all deposit holders for E6 engines requesting 50% payment. This caught me off gaurd at first, but has been cleared up, sort of. The last thing I've heard from Jan is that I've been moved to the next batch. Well, the next batch is June of '08. That's not my batch. Gary has told me that my deposit is good until the day they actually buy my engine. I don't know how to find that out. My order was for June 2009, so I still don't know where I stand with them.

Second, another Egg customer has had some very difficult times lately with getting straight answers, and support from the factory. I'll let him jump in with details if he wants to (he is an RBer), but the write up on his site this week was very troubling to me.

Third, last night my wife tells me that she had a 'bad feeling' when we were looking at the Subaru at SNF last year. She's usually about 75% right about her 'feelings', but she never said anything until last night. Not necessarily about Jan, but about the whole idea of the Subaru engine. This one, perhaps more than anything else, is most prominent to me.

Fourth, (still unanswered) is about performance. My goal for my 7 is 170kts at no more than 10gph at 8,000ft. According to the performance page on the Egg site, this is doable, but the engine is turning at 5,000rpm, and NO ONE is running cruise rpms that high. Most are turning 3800-4000rpm, and getting somewhere around 145-150kts. That's too slow. I emailed Gary about this today, but he's on a short vacation for the weekend.

So, having said all that, I am a deflated 'Chadenfellner' at this point. It may be a good thing though, as Brit says, because she feels we should use the engine the airplane was designed for...or at least an airplane engine...like maybe a Franklin!

cjensen wrote:I am not cancelling my order for an E6 Subaru, BUT, I am going to continue my research on which one is really the right thing for me to do.

It's always smart to keep your options open. I'm not putting in my order for a Soob until I can see one fly, and get some accurate speed reports.

cjensen wrote:I apologize for sounding like a broken record around here...try being my wife!

Not on your life. Not even if you buy me dinner and call me the next day.

cjensen wrote:Some events that lead to this were...first, an email was sent to all deposit holders for E6 engines requesting 50% payment. This caught me off gaurd at first, but has been cleared up, sort of. The last thing I've heard from Jan is that I've been moved to the next batch. Well, the next batch is June of '08. That's not my batch. Gary has told me that my deposit is good until the day they actually buy my engine. I don't know how to find that out. My order was for June 2009, so I still don't know where I stand with them.

Second, another Egg customer has had some very difficult times lately with getting straight answers, and support from the factory. I'll let him jump in with details if he wants to (he is an RBer), but the write up on his site this week was very troubling to me.

What got me was that part about starting to charge for fly-in, drive-in walk-in factory assistance. Are they really getting that many people that need help with their engines? If so, why? That was an item of interstest to me.

cjensen wrote:Third, last night my wife tells me that she had a 'bad feeling' when we were looking at the Subaru at SNF last year. She's usually about 75% right about her 'feelings', but she never said anything until last night.

Listen to that feeling. She has to be comfortable in the airplane too. Plus I think women are better at picking up certain vibes that we fella's are. Many times my wife has had "feelings" about certain things and I've learned to just listen to her. I think the Lord speaks to us through her sometimes.

cjensen wrote:Fourth, (still unanswered) is about performance. My goal for my 7 is 170kts at no more than 10gph at 8,000ft. According to the performance page on the Egg site, this is doable, but the engine is turning at 5,000rpm, and NO ONE is running cruise rpms that high. Most are turning 3800-4000rpm, and getting somewhere around 145-150kts. That's too slow.

Yep. I was reading that one email about "snapshots" that one fellow took on his Soob's performance on a recent cross country. It was an RV-7A I believe and the performance sounded less than stellar. One of my big concerns.

cjensen wrote:So, having said all that, I am a deflated 'Chadenfellner' at this point. It may be a good thing though, as Brit says, because she feels we should use the engine the airplane was designed for...or at least an airplane engine...like maybe a Franklin!

You sound like a wise Chadenfellner to me. Keep your options open until you absolutely need an engine. And absolutely listen to your wife. She has a stake in your aircraft too.

Would you mind PM'ing me that website you mentioned? I was fairly deep in the Egg camp myself but I want to keep as informed as possible on it.

Keep us all posted.

svanarts wrote:

cjensen wrote:I apologize for sounding like a broken record around here...try being my wife!

Not on your life. Not even if you buy me dinner and call me the next day.

Not even a NICE dinner!? HA! LOL!!

svanarts wrote:What got me was that part about starting to charge for fly-in, drive-in walk-in factory assistance. Are they really getting that many people that need help with their engines? If so, why? That was an item of interstest to me.

Yeah, that REALLY caught my attention too last night...Wondering the same thing.

svanarts wrote:Listen to that feeling. She has to be comfortable in the airplane too. Plus I think women are better at picking up certain vibes that we fella's are. Many times my wife has had "feelings" about certain things and I've learned to just listen to her. I think the Lord speaks to us through her sometimes.

Exactly. I know exactly what you mean by that.

svanarts wrote:Yep. I was reading that one email about "snapshots" that one fellow took on his Soob's performance on a recent cross country. It was an RV-7A I believe and the performance sounded less than stellar. One of my big concerns.

Yeah, that was Andy Parish's write up. VERY slow for a 7/7A. I can see the lower fuel burn being a factor, but it's just too slow, and speed with economy is one major reasons I chose to build an RV-7.

Oh...and PM sent Scott...

Chad, sounds like you are just making wise choices. Keep the mind open and make sure you get what you and your wife are comfortable with. For me I feel that just the fact I'm building the plane is all of the experimental part I need so I am sticking with the standard Lycoming.

Now I just need to decide between a Lyco from Van's or Barrett. The Barrett is so pretty, it is what I really want, but...

Chad, you are the consumer here. Don't be pressured by anyone.

You don't want to have buyers remorse on such a large and important purchase.

You lays your monies down and you takes your chances, as they say!

Make your decision one you can literally live with!

CJ

Chad, no apologizes required, in fact, many of us should be thanking you. You have dove into this issue (and many others) in a very public way that few people do and have really helped bring a LOT of issues to light that may have been missed by a less than rigorous investigation.

You have to be comfortable with your choices like said above.

Even when you do make your choice, sign the cheque, then leave it on the table for a couple of days and make sure you sleep on it a night or two. If the decision still keeps you awake, it may not be right for you as your subconscious is a power thing, it listens to intuition even when we are too excited to pick up on little things that bother us about decisions. If you get a couple of really good nights sleep, it likely means you and your subconscious are very happy with the decision and a weight has been lifted now that the direction has been chosen. I've used this method for all major decisions in my life and it does work, even kept me from buying a car I really shouldn't have when I was young and foolish. There is nothing wrong with be apprehensive about going into something new, taking a risk on something new in your life, whatever, but it is very important to be comfortable with the choices you make, and that may include the comfort level of others around you.

I for one thank you for going into this kind of thing in such a public manner, it does help me for sure. Besides, what good is a weather vane if it doesn't keep changing direction

cjensen wrote: According to the performance page on the Egg site, this is doable, but the engine is turning at 5,000rpm, and NO ONE is running cruise rpms that high.

That's one of my (if not THE) primary concerns I have with this setup- assuming a 2000 hr. TBO, I think that would be like driving your car at 100-110 mph for 200,000 miles. Granted, you don't have the constant stop sign type acceration going on all the time, but that's a lot of time & load

Chadventional,
Since your desired engine arrival time is in '09, you have considerable time to see where the new PSRU/H-6 goes in both TRUE flying performance AND company support (this certainly is not the first time the latter has raised the ire of someone). Why not get your deposit back if possible, and observe for now and not worry about it? It seems you have a lot of time before needing an engine, and are 1.5 years out of synch with the Egg deliveries (from our personal conversation) anyway. I'm also considering an Egg, but want a year minimum of this engine fielded. The more I think about it, I can't find too much fault in the O-320 Lycoming/Catto 3 blade coarse pitched prop RV-9A I test drove - damn smooth enough, and I KNOW the preformance numbers. Smoked the Dakota/ c/s I flew in on. I am debating also an O-360 with the lower compression jugs (yeah yeah, I know about Vne in the -9) so I can use mogas in case (and likely) fuel prices get real ugly over my flying lifespan.

Chad:

You have outlined all very good points to hold off on your order. Many of them are the very reasons why I held off going with an Egg many moons ago. Seems things have not changed significantly. It has been pointed out above that this is an experimental airplane we are building and I for one did not want to make the engine experimental as well. Thus N782P has an 0320-E2D.

If you are very mechanically inclined and have experience working with various engines, then by all means go for the Egg. But if you are like me, and only know that if you put gas in the car and turn the key it starts, then keep your engine selection simple and go with a Lyc. After doing my own installation of my 0320, I feel I know plenty about my engine, mostly because it is simple. All the electronic gizmos (sheesh...I'm making myself sound like a cranky old fart!) can really cloud the issue when installing and trouble-shooting an installation such as an Egg, even when it is a firewall forward installation.

Bottom line.....Go with a Lycoming. Put a Catto three blade on it and go out and have a ball.

IMHO as always...

I agree with Carl. I'm at least a year away from needing my engine but realize many decisions going forward will be determined by my ultimate engine choice.

Until recently I was committed to an ECI IO-320D1A (160hp) with Catto prop. However, since I will be purchasing the kit engine and assembling myself, I realize I can go with the ECI IO-360 with 7.5:1 pistons (170hp) and burn 92 octane as well as 100LL. Yeah, yeah, I know, but after several conversations with Ted Jones in Lockhart, TX as well as Dave in San Antonio, both of which have 360s in their 9's, they don't come close to VNE and are showing fuel burns comparable to the 320's.

Don't feel too bad Chad...we're right there with you brother...

Yeah, Bret - on the difference (360 vs 320), all performance numbers I have seen posted and in talking with Ken K at Van's shows similar fuel burn for a given speed - in other words, thermodynamics are the same. Getting back to the Egg, I don't believe I have seen fuel burn/speed numbers that BEAT the Lycoming. It will be interesting to see real world data on the new PSRU - anyone finds 'em, post 'em when they are flying.

Good on you for doing the due dilligence Chad. Youve got more advice than you can probably handle. Mine, well, do what makes the wife comfortable. If this is a plane that is for the two of you, and she has legitimate educated issues. Take head, its not going to be worth the trouble. Them wives, they know stuff.

Thanks guys!!

Carl-
The only problem with waiting it out at this point about the 1.5-2 years I predict, is that I'll probably be ordering my finish kit towards the end of this year. So that means less than six months before I REALLY need to know what's going on up front. Do I delete the cowl? Mount? This stuff I need to know because it will only get more expensive if I have to order, send back, reorder...

Jeff-
Good points on installations. I am somewhat mechanically inclined when it comes to engines. I do most of the work on my Dakota truck myself. It's a simple Dodge V-6 though. My wife's Envoy...well, that's another story. Complex I-6 that I don't even want to mess with. That's sort of how I'm trying to compare things here now. Lyc/clone/Franklin is my Dodge...and the Egg is the Envoy.

Point taken Jeff, thanks.

Spike-
Yeah, THAT part is carrying the MOST weight for me now. She has a problem with the Subaru (and personel to an extent), and if she has a problem, I have a problem. This is being built for both of us to travel in, and I had better get on board, or I'll be sailing a solo ship...

I'm just curious...is it the experimental nature of an auto conversion that draws interest? Isn't this auto conversion firewall forward package nearly the same as a Lyc from a cost perspective?

Dan in Dallas...

I don't think it's the experimental nature of it that draws the crowds. It's the fact that it's different, and the promise of it being "better"...which it's not really, just different.

As far as cost is concerned, the Eggenfellner package is pretty close to the same price FWF, when all things are considered. It's when you add the expensive electric prop...that's where the price is actually *higher* than some Lyc installs. All things being eqaual, they are close in price.

The do-it-yourself Subie/rotary/whatever installs can be MUCH cheaper. My friend with a rotary installed (not flying yet) on his 7 is probably going to have it to flying status with no more than $15k firewall to prop.

That's what I figured. To me the RV is no longer "Experimental" from a practical perspective, with over 5000 flying, which I like.

To each his own, but I just can't see going the auto conversion route, especially when there are so many lyc clones that you can even asssemble from a kit, I just don't see the point of going another way given the risk.

But I guess someone has to be a pioneer!