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Van wrote an article in this months RViator about airshow noise. He hit the nail on the head. Multiple times during this years event I had to cease conversations due to the flamingly stupid noise levels from that darned jet powered Waco and I wasnt even near the flight line. I found it totally ridiculous that we had to be subject to that horrendous noise. What did you think ?


-- John

spike wrote:Van wrote an article in this months RViator about airshow noise. He hit the nail on the head. Multiple times during this years event I had to cease conversations due to the flamingly stupid noise levels from that darned jet powered Waco and I wasnt even near the flight line. I found it totally ridiculous that we had to be subject to that horrendous noise. What did you think ?
-- John

I think it's kind of odd. The general public complains about airplane noise much of the time but when they go to an airshow they expect and are disappointed if there isn't some noisey jet doing something.

I saw the Masters of Disaster (good name) (he said sarcastically) at OSH 2003. Between the Waco and that firebreather on the ground I couldn't hear a thing. The crowd thought it was great.

I guess we all have to get used to the fact that the general public and pilots go to airshows for completely different reasons.

I agree with Van's position completely. For me, aerobatic displays are about pilot skill and demonstating the capabilities of the airplane. One of the most memorable aerobatic displays I've seen was done by a pilot flying a sailplane. Very little noise and he did a beautiful job of flying a well put together show. Another memorable show for me was one year at Watsonville, CA. when the wind was blowing hard and most of the airshow pilot's shows were being blown apart by the wind and then came The Eagles, in their Cristian Eagles. Their routine was flown flawlessly and on track regardless of the wind. It's not about noise!!

hngrflyr

spike wrote:Van wrote an article in this months RViator about airshow noise. He hit the nail on the head. Multiple times during this years event I had to cease conversations due to the flamingly stupid noise levels from that darned jet powered Waco and I wasnt even near the flight line. I found it totally ridiculous that we had to be subject to that horrendous noise. What did you think ?

I thought that Van possibly had a leg to stand on, in that it might have interfered with his business. I find it hard to believe, based on how far from the flight line his booth was, but if he said it, then I have no choice but to believe him. I would hardly classify the noise levels as "flamingly stupid" the plane doesn't make much noise at all unless it is pointed directly at you, which might happen 5 or 6 times during his show. Even then, I find it amazing. What I do find annoying is that horrible "blatting" coming off the tips of the props on stearmans and T-6's. If you guys want to get into banning those from performing I would be right there with you, those things are typically so boring although I have seen a few people really wring out some Stearmans.

What I was amazed by was Van's prescience to know exactly why the child began to cry. I'm quite sure that it had nothing to do with the heat, the standing, the incredibly long walks or the fact that Daddy and Mommy were standing around talking about something that was boring the child. Depending on the age of the child, this may have been irresponsibility on the part of the parents to even have a young child out in this, or a poorly raised child who began to cry b/c no one was paying attention to him at the moment. MOD went on late in the day, and everyone, especially a child, would be tired by then.

There were lots of children around me on the flight line, including some that were very young(around 2 years old, maybe younger, but still in strollers), none of them began to cry. In the early elementary school range(5-8 or so) these guys were the biggest hits of the show. Using Van's standard, I can now claim that airplane noise level's are not too high at all.

The only thing about the airshow that made me want to cry was being subjected to Mary Dilda's routine for days on end.

and BTW- no one forced you to be subjected to that noise. It was long announced that MOD would be in attendance, therefore you were not surprised with anything. Also, you probably have an ANR headset, feel free to put it on

svanarts wrote:I guess we all have to get used to the fact that the general public and pilots go to airshows for completely different reasons.

This is a horribly elitist attitude. Do you really think that the people who get excited about MOD are all not pilots? Classical Ipse Dixit . I can't pretend that I know, but I would be willing to bet that a lot of pilots get really into what is without a doubt the highest energy air show I have ever seen. Obviously some people aren't interested in air shows that show amazing pilots in equally amazing aircraft, but I would like to think(I won't pretend that I know what everyone else is thinking) that most pilots would.

A pilot should be able to appreciate even more the routines of men like this. A non-pilot at the show might not appreciate the effects on the body of -8G's, but someone like an RV pilot should be able to appreciate that even more and recognize the difficulty in doing this consistently and maintaining a routine.

hngrflyr wrote:I agree with Van's position completely. For me, aerobatic displays are about pilot skill and demonstating the capabilities of the airplane.

If these are the standards you apply to appreciating an airshow, then MOD should be the ideal for you. How many pilots in the world do you think could consistently do what Jim Leroy or Jim Franklin do and live to tell about it.

An amazing amount of work has gone into both of these airplanes, they are much more than the average cookie cutter experimental. They mounted a jet engine to an old biplane for God's sakes. They have built airplanes with capabilities that almost no one could meet and then have become pilots capable of meeting them. I for one appreciate their effort and have made every attempt to show my appreciation to them.

I go to an airshow to see someone do something that I couldn't or wouldn't do, and the performance of people like Jim Leroy or Jim Franklin is exactly what I want to see more of. They show themselves to be capable of everything that any of the other pilots could do, only they do it lower and faster.

My own opinion of the noise is that it was loud sure, but to make a kneejerk reaction and say that it has to come down is ridiculous. Does anyone have any information on what kind of sound level actually reached the spectators vs. what is actually dangerous? That would be an effective argument instead of appealing to the emotions caused by one crying child. As far as the special prop to make more noise, yeah I fail to see the point to that as well, some people may equate the noise with power, but this sounds like an isolated case.

I can take solace in the fact that things are unlikely to change, and we are more likely to see more high energy, fast, exciting airshows like MOD in the future. I know that is what I'm hoping for.

Irregardless- hope you guys are having fun with your RV's

Wren, your view here is appreciated. I will take the pill and say that my comment of "flammingly stupid" very well could have been over the top, more tact would have been appropriate. I cannot attest to the validity of Van's claims about the child crying. However, I can attest to his claim of affecting business. During one of the Waco performances I was attempting to have a business generating conversation with Ken Scott which was halted no less than 4 times because of the Waco.

My opinions are not intended to take away anything from the pilots, their talents, or their airplanes. I am confident that each one of of them are very capable pilots with awesome machines. However I do find it hard to swallow that I could not have a conversation with my wife while walking through the RV parking area. I would have been willing to put up with it if I were waching the show from the flight line, etc. Alas, I wasnt, I was trying to enjoy the time away from the crowds with my wife. The comment about having a choice is true. However I dont think that I should have to leave the grounds (after paying a fairly sizeable sum of money to be there) because of the desire to protect my hearing.

The desire to bring a SPL meter or some such to the show to get quantatative measurements of the sound is a good one and many times during the shows this year I wished that I had had mine with me. Maybe we could get together with EAA and take measurements during the '05 show. We should do the same at Sun 'n Fun. I am not saying that airshows cant have noise. I am saying though that there shouldnt be so much that those who are in attendance find themselves concerned about the SPL exposure.


-- John

spike wrote:Wren, your view here is appreciated. I will take the pill and say that my comment of "flammingly stupid" very well could have been over the top, more tact would have been appropriate.

I'll take my own pill and say that the tone of my post definitely comes across "angrier" than it should.

The desire to bring a SPL meter or some such to the show to get quantatative measurements of the sound is a good one and many times during the shows this year I wished that I had had mine with me. Maybe we could get together with EAA and take measurements during the '05 show. We should do the same at Sun 'n Fun. I am not saying that airshows cant have noise. I am saying though that there shouldnt be so much that those who are in attendance find themselves concerned about the SPL exposure.


-- John

I just think that this is the only kind of argument I could get behind. If noise levels are damaging to hearing, then the flight line has got to come back or the noise has got to come down. Requiring earplugs of hundreds of thousands of people is not practical. Maybe EAA or someone will try to find out.

This is a horribly elitist attitude. Do you really think that the people who get excited about MOD are all not pilots? Classical Ipse Dixit . I can't pretend that I know, but I would be willing to bet that a lot of pilots get really into what is without a doubt the highest energy air show I have ever seen. Obviously some people aren't interested in air shows that show amazing pilots in equally amazing aircraft, but I would like to think(I won't pretend that I know what everyone else is thinking) that most pilots would.

Geez talk about elitist, Mr. ID. MOD is just obnoxious. I don't think the show is designed to appeal to pilots. It seems to target the top fuel dragster, monster truck crowd. Go ahead and enjoy it. I'll be plugging my ears just waiting for it to end. Well, that and waiting for the Harrier jet to leave.

I have been in forum tents where you could not hear the speaker over some airplane noise. Noise and the parents who who won't keep their kids off your airplane are two reasons a lot of builders I know prefer fly-ins without airshows.

arffguy wrote:I have been in forum tents where you could not hear the speaker over some airplane noise. Noise and the parents who who won't keep their kids off your airplane are two reasons a lot of builders I know prefer fly-ins without airshows.

Amen to that! Maybe I'm just turning into an old fart!

What is wrong with you people. Sometimes to get the performance out of the aircraft, noise needs to be made. I ENJOY airshows. One of my favorites acts is John Mohr with his stock Stearman, now talk about talent. But, I enjoy everything with airshows from the Thunderbirds to a stock Stearman, and ALL the varieties in between. There is PLENTY of time in the day to talk with vendors about their product versus the 2 or so hours the airshow goes on. C'mon guys, and Van, get over it. We have enough trouble with the so called noise problems, without us "aviation enthusiasts" creating more. What about all those "stupid Harley's" making noise out there. The problem is if "we don't do it", "we don't like it". Enjoy the airshow for the 2 hours, and the other 10 hours at Oshkosh shop.

The "stupid Harleys" out there are one of the biggest reason that the American Motorcycle Association is fighting motorcycle bans in many areas of the country. Maybe we can learn something from that.


-- John

It's not just the "stupid Harley's" that make noise. I don't mean to offend, as I am a cycle rider also. There are a LOT of noise problems out there, not just planes including NASCAR, sport's events like football, concerts, car stereo's, etc. The point I am making is that if you don't like it you don't have to be there. There is no way that you can't see, and talk to who you want too, BEFORE the airshow. I have been at Oshkosh, and SNF for many years. Plan your day, and it's no problem. For me, and I figure most others, the airshow is a treat. Also, why doesn't Airventure and SNF open earlier, say 7AM, and when the airshow starts, close down for the day. That way, they still have the same amount of time open to the people, and not be affected by the airshow "noise". Just because it may not be your thing, doesn't mean it's stupid. People need to be more respectful of other people's likes.

spike wrote:The "stupid Harleys" out there are one of the biggest reason that the American Motorcycle Association is fighting motorcycle bans in many areas of the country. Maybe we can learn something from that.


-- John

Just like flying, if you don't do it you wouldn't understand. I've never seen a "stupid Harley" just an occasional stupid rider. It's quite a thrill to see and hear a large pack of Harleys go thundering by, it's even better to be in it.

Rocket Guy wrote:Just because it may not be your thing, doesn't mean it's stupid. People need to be more respectful of other people's likes.

Including the folks who don't care for the noise? Or should we just be respectful of certain peoples likes?

I personally don't like the noise but that's exactly why most of the general public are there... for the noise! These are the same people though who b tch and moan about airport noise the other 364 days a year though.

DISCLAIMER: These are just opinions. You don't have to agree nor do you have to hate me because these opinions may differ from yours. However, if you feel you must hate me because my opinions differ, you have that right. These opinions are offered free of charge. No warranty is expressed or implied. These opinions good only in the continental US, Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included. Partial intelligence required.

Just to qualify my original support of Van's position, the sounds that are incidental to the airshow performance are acceptable to me. What would the Air Races be without the beautiful song of the Merlins and the big radials. I think most objections are aimed at shows that seem to go out of their way simply to make more noise. I have no desire to rain on anyone's parade. It's just a simple matter of respecting each other.

hngrflyr