RivetBangers.com

In reading Joew's thread I found some of the posts to be incredibly interesting, from a personal perspective. Two comments by CJ and Mike specifically...

CJ wrote:Coincidentally I just wrote this on another post! Build the plane you want.

bullojm1 wrote:CJ brings up an excellent point about building the plane you WANT.

In context they were talking about how to equip your project so that its the plane you want. Lots of us spin around the axle comparing what equipment we want against what is reasonable for us to spend, etc. But I want to broaden that thought out to the larger perspective by changing one word.

"Build the airframe that you want." Most of us would say something along the lines of, "well, yeah, Duh!". But what I have been pondering as of late is when does it become acceptable to change or walk away from your project because its no longer the airframe that you want?

Obviously we cold debate what 'acceptable' means. Realistically it seems to me that 'acceptable' should be defined by that builder, and only that builder, despite any social or financial peer pressure. Realistically I guess what I am curious about is at what point motivated builders, the ones who did not make a mistake by getting involved in building their own aircraft, would give themselves permission to move on / change direction.

This is something Patti and I have been talking about lately with the eminent arrival of our daughter, something that we didn't foresee when we started this project. Couple this with some other major life changes over the past 12 months or so we have been revisiting some of our goals and directions. Lots of questions (and promise) arise from this type of introspection, one of them being this one.

I'm interested in hearing the groups perspective, it should make for a great discussion.

Spike

This one hit home with me. I was planning a $35K+ panel until my wife sat me down and told me we were having another one.

My panel turned into a budget VFR panel instantly.

Funny thing is that this had a way of working out for the better.

I really don't need a high dollar panel. My airplane has more capability than 90% of the rental fleet and has a dual axis AP to boot.

And this allowed me to fly earlier and with no debt on the plane.

I am gratefull it worked out that way. If things are better in the future, I can always upgrade..

As soon as it becomes a stress. whether financially or just not fun. For me it's a hobby, when I can't afford my hobby or I don't have any joy sharing it with friends and family I will bail.

I started a 429 powered Bronco project 22yrs ago. Jobs and moves and family put it on the back burner. I said I would never sell that toy. We got to the engine run point working with my son in High school, but he didn't seem that interested(wanted to tweak his Honda). so we never finished it. It's still here but I'd sell it today for pennys on the dollar if someone wants to finish it. I just don't get any enjoyment from it anymore.

If Kris wasn't on board with the RV and travel it will allow, It would be for sale also. I have a friend who started his -7a about the same time as I, I doubt he will ever finish due to the stress of wanting everything perfect, but he is not able to attain perfection. I hope to get my 40 flown off and give him a ride in a not perfect RV.

My dad told me long ago, "if it makes you feel good, do it!....then a long pause......as long as it won't get you arrested"

We only have to answer to ourselves....oh and our spouse.

You know where I stand Spike and you have my support and friendship no matter what. Do what is best for you!

Spike, you really didn't say how you wanted to move on / change direction.

Are you thinking of abandoning the project, putting it on hold or building a -10?

There is a huge spectrum of choices out there!

Any and all of which I am sure each and every one of us would support you on!

What are you thinking?

Me? I went through recent life changing scenarios and stayed focused on the project. I can relate to that for sure!

CJ

You need to do what is best for you and your family, and not what you thought you wanted when you started the project. If you have the means and the support of your wife, I say continue with the project. If she isn't on board, better to stop now. I can't remember exactly where you are in your project, but IIRC, you have a some big choices and big $$ coming up. Better to walk away from 10k than 20k. Selling an partially completed kit is a money losing deal, the more you have into it when you walk away, the more you will lose.

I have a wife and two kids who like to fly, but they don't love to fly. Most of my flying is me solo, or with a friend. The kids like to go occasionally, but not as often as I do. My wife views the plane as a way to get somewhere fast

Spike,

This is a decision that only you can make, but I think you should stick through the project you have now until the end. I understand your life's mission has changed, but your RV can still hold the 'lil one in the back for at least a few years. You might learn a lot in that time. Maybe you won't fly with the whole family as much as you thought and the 2 seater makes sense.

Bill Rogers at THV has a -7 with two little ones. When he flies with the family in a rented Cherokee Six. You have to figure a 4 seater will add significant cost and time to a build. Is that something that makes sense? Will you fly solo 90% of the time?

Things change. Wants change, but stick with it because nothing beats the feeling of completion. If you find your RV isn't right for your mission, sell it and buy a 4 seater (experimental or certified), You will have all the satisfaction of completing your RV, the profit from a finished RV and a bird that fits the Wants of what fits your life currently.

I couldn't imagine trying to build this airplane and trying to raise my 3 kids. I put it off for 20 years. Now that they are older I have more time and once they get through college I'll have more money!
On the other hand, spend the money now and enjoy the freedom that flying will afford you. Life is too short to wait on the sidelines.

I think I'm with Mike. You've come so far. I'd be most inclined to finish it, fly it, and see what your family's flying needs look like in a few years. Long term, the satisfaction of finishing it and flying it, even if you eventually go with something else, is something you'll have pride in for the rest of your life. OTOH, selling a partially finished project (and losing money on it) may give you a sick feeling in your gut for years to come whenever you think about it. It makes the most sense financially, since a partially finished RV is a losing proposition. But how you feel about it matters, too.

Question for Scott... since he built and sold an RV-4 and then built his new Coyote. Scott, what say you? How differently would you feel today if you had sold your RV before finishing it? Any thoughts or regrets? You're the only one I can think of around here who has the experience to speak to Spike's question.

Spike, in the end, no matter what you do, your friends here will understand and support you. I'm just tossing something out for consideration.

First of all, thank you Spike and Patti...without you two and Rivetbangers.com, we wouldn't even be having this discussion among friends.

The main point has been mentioned several times, support from your membership will not change regardless of whether you have an RV-9A, and RV-10, or a Trinidad ( ). Tough subject, for sure, but what remains from whatever you decide is the online community of friends we've all made over the last five or six years since RB came to be.

That being said, I would encourage you to keep moving ahead with the 9A simply because you are getting pretty close to completion. Lance is right that the longer you wait to cut bait and bail, the more you'll lose, but you are closer than you think to being DONE!!

And I say all of that knowing that I have had SERIOUS thoughts of selling my 7 over the last few months. My wife and I are working extremely hard to pay off our student loans and the SUV she drives...selling the RV would allow us to do that in no time, but even as badly as we want out of debt, and more disposable income available, she encourages me all the time to not sell because it's been such a huge part of my life for the last five and a half years. I've listened so far, and it's a strain sometimes financially, but the RV is SUCH A GOOD AIRPLANE, and the friends made are so supportive...I'd hate to see ya walk away from the project.

If you do...I have your next airplane waiting for you.

Ditto, to all that's been said and especially what Chad said.

Having had to sell mine which I didn't even build I still miss it and if I had built it I might not have sold it.

If I get my medical back when this is all over and if I can afford it I was thinking I would get a 10. Now I don't know if I will have the money or not but if I do I will have to decide on a 7A or a 10!??

Kids change your life no doubt. Mine were still riding in my truck with me to OSH and little kids just a few months ago it seems and now they are grown and just in the past year I went from having it all to almost having nothing. It's almost a year already!

My point is, do what you think is best but try to remember that time does go buy so quickly, just think, how long have WE known each other and how fast has THAT gone by.

Whatever you choose I am there to help if I can.

Lots of diverse opinions here -- I feel like throwing mine on the pile too.

When we decided that we were ready to start a family, you set a goal of having the RV done before our new arrival arrived, and that was over 3 years ago. Since then you've discovered other activities that you find much enjoyment in, you've started your own business, and we're now finally 3 weeks (or less, since she seems to be impatient) from having our daughter. I've even allowed way too many house maintenance tasks slide for over 5 years because I didn't want to put pressure on you to take away time from building.

You started this project 7 years ago, and our lives have definitely changed in the last 3, in ways that we never would have predicted when you started. But the changes aren't what's been keeping you from building lately. "In the beginning", you worked odd long hours, spent countless hours at the firehouse, and drove an hour each way to fly the Cessna -- but you still found lots of time to work on the RV. In the last couple of years, not so much.

I don't care what anyone says, there is never a logical rationale for building an airplane. People will tell you that it makes flying easier or cheaper -- but it never really does by the time you count up your labor, the panel of your dreams, and the various compromises you make along the way because you figure out how expensive it really would be. The only reason for building is because you want to; whether that be for education, entertainment, or some strange masochistic bent. ( ) It's clear to me that you're starting to miss out on the want part of the whole thing.

I don't care how much time and money we have in the project. Let me repeat that:

I don't care how much time and money we have in the project.

I don't care if we would lose our @sses less by selling a completed airplane versus a kit. I don't care if it takes you 6 more years to finish at a pace that suits you (although we would need to negotiate custody of the storage areas of the basement, lol). I don't care if you put in a $60,000 panel and a brand new engine or a used engine with just an altimeter and a fuel gauge. The only thing that I care about is that you do what makes you happy -- what you want to do; because the only reason to be building is because you want to. If it's a chore then "you're doing it wrong."

Ok, the other thing that I would care about is you allowing the opinions of others to browbeat you into doing something you don't have your heart in, whether that's finishing or not finishing.

Really soon you're going to have a beautiful daughter with your nose and cheeks from what we can tell from the 4d that the hospital gave us. She's going to love you just as much as I do, whether you build an RV, or a Kitfox, or a gyrocopter, or nothing. If you're going to finish the RV out of a sense of obligation, then you're finishing it for the wrong reason. You're 35 now... oh wait; that's me. You're 34 now; this is not like your parents making you clean your plate or tell your aunt that you loved her Christmas sweater. If you're not loving what you're doing, then it's time to do something else -- and only you can truly decide if you're loving what you're doing or of it's time to move on. Even though I do have the power to tell you what shirt and tie to wear and that you absolutely have to pick up kitty litter on the way home, even I can't decide this for you. Only you know what makes you happy.

So that's it. Please just do what is going to make you happy -- whatever that is. I'm behind you all the way.

Well why the hell did you ask us Spike?

I think that response should suffice, huh!?

There you go spike!!

If you are three weeks away from the most exciting day in your life(it was for me-twice ), don't worry about the RV for now. Wait for your little girl to show up. She will make the decision for you soon enough.

There really isn't much I can add to the above in how to make the choice of how to move forward. All I can add is a method I have used for a lot of years when it comes to big decisions. I make the choice and don't tell anyone, and I mean anyone and see how I sleep, if my attitude towards everything else changes, and if others notice a change in me. If the answer is everything improves after a few days, I KNOW I made the right choice for me. It is amazing how much having a big choice in front of you can affect how everything and everyone else around you is treated. No matter what you decide, you will have a LOT of support, but as your co-pilot said, it has to be what you want, building your plane is a passion for sure, but only as long as you have the passion to do it.

Wow, quite a few responses ......

I was actually thinking of starting this conversation in a more general sense. As I have worked through things lately for myself I was wondering, in general, what people's perspective was. Though it looks like things took a turn square towards me 'sok I dont mind so much.

So a few bits of information in responses to questions, etc.

• Patti, as can be read above, is on board with just about any and all decisions, so spousal unit approval is almost a given.
• Finances, while always something that needs to be minded, isn't a primary factor in this conversation, for us. I know it plays a huge role in the entire journey of home building, but it isn't what has us here, today.
• We have no intentions of doing anything to the detriment of RB (in case you were wondering). For us, this place is about family way more than it is about aircraft.
• My current project, with exception to priming the interior access panels, is ready for initial mounting of the wings which I will push off until at the airport. That leaves me getting ready to install the gear weldments and mount the tail. Finish Kit in hand, wings wired, roll servo, AOA sensors, landing/taxi lights are in, yadda yadda yadda. I believe that leaves me at 60% done and 140% to go.
• I appreciate the offer Chad, as selfish as it might have been . But if I end up with a 2 seat RV it will be the one currently in my basement.
• I very much enjoy building. Its therapeutic, frustrating, rewarding, and cool, all rolled up into one.
• I enjoy flying more.

Ill try to give you guys some history, and though I tried to keep it brief, its a bit of a read. It might be more than you want to know, but hey, I want this to be a place where builders and prospective builders can see all sides of this addiction, even the un-glorified portions.

I got the bug at my first Oshkosh experience, in '01, with my father. Patti and I were dating, but not yet engaged and I had just recently entered a partnership around a really nice 172. I knew a couple of guys building RV's an they were kind of neat planes. Driving out Dad and I talked about building a plane. It was definitely something that I was interested in and I was on a mission to find out more. The RV's were cool, but I fell head over heels in love with the Kitfox Series V. By the end of the show John McBean (working for skystar at the time) almost put me on staff because I was visiting their display so much. I liked the RV's, but the Series V was pure romance. The darn thing haunted me.

Fast forwarding 3 years to '04 puts Patti and I at Osh looking around. I was bent on building a plane. I had a bit of time in an RV and knew how nice they flew and as such spent a bunch of time looking at the 9. I don't really care about going upside down or losing my lunch. I got into flying because of the freedom of travel and with the intent of getting the IA rating to facilitate that (which I have since done). With neither Patti or I wanting children a 2 seat touring machine, such as the 9A, made perfect sense. No, it wasn't romance, and it didn't get my blood rushing like that Kitfox did, but it was a great compromise and made sense. Being backed by the biggest name in the business didn't hurt either. After Ken Scott said the most ridiculous, sensible, and perfectly coined marketing blather to me at their tent (I hear he is good at writing too ) I went home with the preview plans. The tail kit came a few months later at Thanksgiving. RB came a month or so after that.

Things change ...

Turns out, that after denying reality, God built Patti and I with biological clocks after all, they just didn't tick. They rang, but they didn't tick. It kind of caught us off guard. Honestly, we are tickled pink on the backside of that revelation, but it was a bit, uh, ground shaking.

Two years ago I got out of the 172 as that partnership had run its course and I wanted to jump start my build again, especially with a potential family to start (it took us a *LONG* time to get preggers). It worked. My progress has (with the exception of the last trimester "nesting" phase) been fantastic and enjoyable. However, I do miss flying, I miss the regiment and challenge of IFR procedures, and I miss hopping in the plane with Patti and meeting friends for lunch and breakfast.

Last year I started a business with a friend that has so far done quite well. This wasn't a spur of the moment thing, its been a life long dream, and I took the opportunity when it came. The downside has been less spare time.

Wow, this is starting to read like a bad novel.

Today ......

The arrival of Carrie kills the compromise of the RV. Its no longer the touring plane that can take the family to visit my parents, or go 3 states away for Niagra Falls visits, etc. Things that I used the Cessna for. It also doesn't invoke the passion that other planes invoke. (That stinking Rotec version of the Kitfox just hurts to look at. ) Don't get me wrong, the RV is a great plane, but not one that I day dream about very much.

The best I can figure first flight is still 2+ years off (assuming pre-baby build rate and some luck), and quite frankly, I don't think I want to wait another that long to get back to owning. I like flying too much, and staying IFR current by renting is a tough and expensive proposition. With that said I am exploring putting together a partnership around a plane and some trustworthy individuals, most likely involving a Cardinal RG. This solves the 3 seat problem, gets me flying with a good performer, for a ton less money than a soley owned EAB.

What I wrestle with is continuing to build the RV or go a different direction and have a project that truly keeps my blood flowing once the build is over. There is enough in common between the 9A and the Cardinal that I am not sure I see the sense in having both, and my ledger sheet says that the Cardinal fits the bill better for my desires in ownership. And boy does putting around after work with the windows open and smelling the honey suckle sound attractive. Thats what a second airplane is about. Thats romance. The other side to the coin is that I am this far down the path, might as well finish it (though as Patti suggests that this might be a poor reason to keep going and I suspect she is probably correct) The kit is some ways past quick build stage, and yeah I could lose a few thousand if I sell it, but I am not sure I care. Cheap price for 6 years of education and entertainment. And if I am going to get out makes sense to do it before I drop another $45K to finish.

I am not making any decisions until Carrie is here, taxes are done, yadda yadda yadda. I might hit Osh and do a bit of research on other planes, or maybe buy an RV engine, you never know. My point being that as I mentioned originally, I am going through some introspection in light of the cool things life has thrown at us. I have no regrets regarding the project, I am just trying to figure out if that direction is still the one that I want to be paddling in.

Spike

Spike wrote: [*]I appreciate the offer Chad, as selfish as it might have been . But if I end up with a 2 seat RV it will be the one currently in my basement.

I meant the Trinidad silly...

Cardinal RG's freakin' rock too man! The group that I was in the Cherokee with almost bought one before the Cherokee deal happened. I'd probably still have it if we would've gone that direction!

Good read Spike...

BSwayze wrote:Question for Scott... since he built and sold an RV-4 and then built his new Coyote. Scott, what say you? How differently would you feel today if you had sold your RV before finishing it? Any thoughts or regrets? You're the only one I can think of around here who has the experience to speak to Spike's question.

Well, I did sell my RV before finishing it. I did finish the RV-4, that is true, but I did not finish the RV-7 I was building. I built the tail and wings before I came to the conclusion that I would not be able to afford to finish an RV-7. Add to that my flying mission had changed. I enjoyed flying the 4 around but I couldn't really do the things with it that I wanted. That's when I decided to go with what I really wanted. I sold the RV-7 kit, I sold the RV-4 and built the Coyote and I'm really enjoying flying it.

Regrets? Sure. I regretted selling the Champ to build the RV-4, I regretted selling the RV-4, I'm sure I'll regret selling the Coyote if I ever do sell it. There is always something about the last plane that you miss when it's gone. But hopefully, you always have your friends' understanding and support.

Oh, and Spike, in case you didn't know... Patty's a keeper.

Spike,

Good luck with the choice. You have Patti's support either way, and that's what counts. One day you will wake up and know what to do, so don't rush to make a decision.

Having, like yourself and CJ, been faced with a number of life changing situations recently, I'm voting to keep the -7A for now and see where I stand when I can come back up for air. Like you, I have all the support I could possibly want. It's always been my dream to build and fly my own plane, and right now I feel that I would be really disappointed if I didn't get to make it come true.

That said, I sure do miss my 172 partnership and the freedom of flying whenever I want. I am lucky to have the use of a friend's plane pretty much when I want, but it's not the same. It's very tempting to sell out and get into a partnership on something really sweet like a Diamond DA40, but even that isn't practical right now given family obligations, work commitments and where I live.

A wise and lovely person I know said to me, "you will have everything you want in life, just not all at the same time." That's one of life's little jokes.

Good luck with the birth guys. It's going to blow you away with how amazing it is.

A little late, but wanted to share my thoughts with you also.

When I started building, I figured a 4 year plan slow build all the way.
4 years turned into 6 years and 10 months before she flew.
Along the way there were certainly plenty of peaks and valleys.
Some years work would pick up and I'd have money but little time to build. A family of 4 and coaching two baseball teams to boot certainly took it's toll on free time to build. Then I got laid off from work one year for 9 months and I had all kinds of time to work on the plane, but ran out of money along the way. (there's an empty SL30 tray still missing the radio in my panel to this day)

Everyone runs into their share of life changing events while building an airplane. It takes most of us years to complete something of this magnitude so it just stands to reason, life will happen along the way.

For me I stayed with it and never gave up, but I tried to make sure my wife and family came first and the plane came afterwards. There were times when I felt like it would take me 10 years to finish, and to be honest, at my age, I was worried that I could be one of those who lost their medical before the plane was done. (That would truly have been devastating to me) I love to fly, and I also discovered along the way that I loved building my RV8 and seeing it to the end was worth it for me.

Something else I feel I should make mention of, is that none of it would have been possible for me without the help and support of my loving wife and kids.

So, having said all that, it probably won't make your decision any easier.
The most important thing for you Spike, is to listen to your heart and let it make the right decision for you.

CONGRATS TO YOU BOTH ON THE COMING OF YOUR DAUGHTER.
May she be born healthy and happy, and I wish all 3 of you the best life has to offer.