Brian isn't part of the problem...

[captain_john]

He IS the problem!!!

Hahaha.. Just kidding!!!

I just read your post on "the other site" and really don't see you as the problem.

The RV guys that give us a bad name (and there are very few) are the warbird wanna-bees that fly their planes without regard to others.

I have chatted with others on this bbs about the warbird drivers who feel like they are above it all and there was a recent document in Flying magazine about them. They are condescending and have no right to be.

But getting back to the RV guys that give us a bad name...

When you do something in the pattern that isn't an upwind, crosswind, downwind, base or final... That is wrong in my book.

Brian, you cleared the area and were in constant communications during all your maneuvers. The people at the airport wanted to see a low pass and you cooperated. If you want to beat yourself up about that, that is your decision. I don't think you were THAT off base, personally. I have seen far worse.

For instance: Flying the ILS inbound at a training field with LOTS of VFR traffic doing patterns in the OPPOSITE direction at a non-towered field (KPYM... all the time!).

This isn't an RVer trick. This is a Bonanza/Cirrus gig. The average VFR student has NO IDEA what an ILS 6 inbound is! It sounds like, "Blah, blah, blah, I hope he doesn't hit me" to the student!

The RVer trick (supposedly) is stuff like overhead breaks and storming into the pattern at 150 knots.

Most students have no idea what an overhead break is and it is non standard.

If there is a tower and this is all communicated and coordinated with the controller, then fine. The controller is handling separation and safety is maintained.

The northeast isn't really an RV "hot bed" and most (maybe all?) guys around here behave themselves well. I can see how people in other parts of the country might have a beef, though. Maybe it isn't the builder/pilots at all? Maybe it's the "I just bought this plane" crowd?

I dunno...

Brian, do you still feel a bit soiled? You shouldn't.

CJ

[hydroguy2]

Thanks John. No I don't feel soiled, don't even feel like I was doing anything wrong, unsafe or even unexpected. Very quiet little airfield, anyone coming in was already there most likely.
I consider myself a low time pilot, but right in the "dangerzone" at 330hrs. The AOPA and VAF threads just got me thinking, maybe I'm over confident and not as safe as I think I am. I guess questioning one's actions is part of being safe.

Thanks for the comment.

ps I tell ya it was quite a rush to see the True airpseed and MPH on the GPS as I zipped past the crowd. Got an email from one fo the guys there, said everyone enjoyed the flyby. This is actually a pic of me taking off.

[captain_john]

They do say the danger-zone is 250-500 hours, right?

Post check ride to so-called "experienced". I am a tad over 600 now. I do feel safer than I did at 300. I think that is because I didn't know what I didn't know.

Knowing now what I do know is that the regs are there so that you don't need to know what you don't know. They already know it for you! hahaha

That DOESN'T mean I want to live in a padded environment and vote for Obama every four years!

You know the edge of the envelope by pushing it. Know that when you are close to the edge... you are close to the edge.

This is a dangerous game and that's why we like it!

We need to police ourselves.

That's not to say that we have to wear nomex underwear and not fly single engine aircraft at night!

CJ

[hydroguy2]

note to self: get some nomex underwear, to go with my giant watch and glasses

[tmbg]

I totaled up my logs recently... after sunday's flight to florida to look at that engine, I'm sitting at 587.8TT, and over 100 hrs IMC, and over 100 approaches.

Unfortunately almost all of those hours are in my Cherokee. I need some variety!

[captain_john]

100 IMC Ian?

Really? Are you logging each hour you fly on an instrument flight plan as IMC?

You can only log the time spent in the klag as IMC.

Right?

CJ

[tmbg]

only the hours in actual or simulated are logged.

fwiw, only 30 hours of that are actual. I flew a LOT under the hood when I was training, because there was awhile there where I was lacking a CFII to finish me up but I wanted to stay competent. Also, I've flown a fair amount of simulated to keep currency.

[captain_john]

Wow!

Ok... cool...

30 hours actual and 70 in the sim are good hours logged!

Good stuff!!!

CJ

[tmbg]

Not in a sim... Simulated as in under the hood

[Bob Barrett]

Brian, You did nothing wrong! You were requested to make the low pass and alerted everyone about what was about to take place. You did not do acro or something! Always question things, that makes you a safer pilot. I believe a good pilot learns something on every flight!

[Pittsbuilder]

This whole ordeal really makes my head spin!! I'm not a member over at the Red Board (for good reason,) but I was reading all that shenanigans over there last night through Ian's (tmbg) account. I can understand how the actions of a few pilots stick out in the minds of all as being grossly negligent, and of course there's a time and a place and all that... but the fact of the matter is that there isn't anything wrong with the way most RV'ers fly. There are those in this world who would have us all believe that there is only one way to fly... in a 172, and if you are doing anything more than flying like a 172 in the pattern that you are wrong. The reality of the situation is that the FAA doesn't mandate a certain pattern entry, and if I want to fly downwind at 180, that's my prerogative. That said, I have to take into account other aircraft in the pattern, and be considerate of their needs and safety as well. IMHO the Cirrus drivers are some of the absolute worst offenders in the pattern. They always fly the HUGEST patterns, and in my experience, they spend almost none of their time in the cockpit "Heads Up"... these guys are so buried in glass, they don't even know you are there. There is a major deficiency in pilot training these days... And the Cirrus/Bonanza crowd have a HUGE reputation for buying way more airplane than they are trained to fly. As far as I'm concerned, being in the pattern and not knowing what someone else is doing when they make their traffic calls isn't acceptable. If you dont know, clarify. I would agree with them that a Busy pattern at an untowered airport is not the time or place to go screaming down final 500ft over pattern altitude and doing an overhead break to downwind. Be courteous of others in the pattern. however, at the same time, The Cirrus pilot's giant airline downwind to 6 mile final isn't in line with The way I fly, or would consider it safe to fly. When I see one of those guys making the marathon downwind, I almost always take the power off 180 to land, and can honestly say Ive never caused anyone any delay because of it. Wow... ok, Im done ranting for now.


BTW, Brian, No error on your part!

[captain_john]

You said, "When I see one of those guys making the marathon downwind, I almost always take the power off 180 to land, and can honestly say Ive never caused anyone any delay because of it".

Do you cut them off on base/final and slide in in front of them?

Do I understand you correctly?

CJ

[Pittsbuilder]

Not quite, If the A/C is a little long turning base, I will slow back and fall in behind them. If I am abeam the numbers, and configured to land, and they are well enough in front of me (1.5+ miles), and aren't turning base, or announcing intentions to turn base, I will chop the power, and make the 180 to land in front of them... Usually by the point that I decide to do that, they are at least 2 miles from the threshold, still on downwind, and no way if they started their turn when I did would I be in their way by the time I clear the runway. This is usually the case with new students, or those pilots who inexplicably want to make big patterns.

Edit: I have recently learned that some pilots view my procedure as "cutting them off". I tend to disagree with that notion. If people think that just because they are first in line on downwind, that they are automatically first to land... I would fairly strongly disagree with that. I would never intentionally cut anyone off... and to date, the way I fly my patterns hasn't required anyone to do anything other than they were already doing. I have never made an A/C go around because I shortened my Base/Final turn. In almost all cases, when I opt for the shorter approach, by the time I'm clearing the runway, I can see the other A/C turning from base to LONG final... I also frequently ask for and receive clearance from tower to do as I am describing... If there is a 172 or something in the pattern making big patterns, I will ask tower for the power off approach... they almost always clear me to land, and ask me to expedite... which I do. Also, around my home field, I know all the CFI's and we have a good understanding as to what we are each doing. I know they want to have their students fly big patterns, and they know I won't get in their way... We have discussed it, and everyone around here is happy with the way it works out.

[Pittsbuilder]

BTW Cj, my whole edit wasn't intended to read as though I meant that you were the one that brought to my attention that some might view my procedure as cutting anyone off... I actually had a discussion with a buddy around the airport about this just the other day (we were both in agreement). I really don't intend to cut anyone off, and I hope that people don't really get irritated with the way I fly.

[aparchment]

Pittsbuilder,

I think as long as people understand your intentions and you and the folks in the pattern have an agreement that sounds fine. I sure wouldn't do it without an understanding reached either beforehand or in advance of you doing it though. I also wouldn't do it with multiple planes in the pattern. Someone behind you may assume they are okay to follow you and run into the guy who extended his downwind.

From my perspective, everyone lines up to land and follows the plane in front of them. This keeps unexpected stuff to a minimum and keeps everyone safe.

On the story front, I was doing close pattern stop and gos one day in a 172 when some guy in a Bonanza announced that he was entering the downwind. I reported my midfield downwind position to make sure it was clear where I was and that I was in front of him. He descended below me and below pattern altitude, zoomed in front, cut the corner and landed long. His rationale was "I'm faster." In my opinion that's reckless flying.

The pattern isn't the place for funky stuff.