RV Choice

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J A Smith
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RV Choice

Post by J A Smith »

I'm new here but not to aviation. Ticket first punched in 1969.
I am in the process of selling my 172B. I am keeping my Commander 112TC
At some time in the future I was going to re-power the 172 with a Cont. IO360 D
A while back I bought a Mid time Cont. IO 360 with full log books and mount.
I'm a real fan of the RV's. I almost bought one when I bought the Commander, but it would not fit my mission.
I would like to replace the 172 with an RV just for weekend sport flying w/2 people, might consider a 4 place.
I will try to keep my questions short
1. Is there a RV that the IO 360 will work well on?
2. Should I sell the IO 360 and just buy a completed RV that fits my needs?
3. Are there builders out there that build for a customer or keep an RV ready to sell ?

I'm trained as an engineer, but have made my living the last 44 years in the automotive racing engine business.
I do nothing in a hurry or knee jerk.
I am guilty of putting decisions in analysis paralysis.
Please give me your opinions and some options, if there are any.
I will appreciate your input respect your answers and opinions.
J A Smith

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leffler
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Re: RV Choice

Post by leffler »

1. The RV-7 and RV-8 can use a Lycoming 360, as well as their predecessors.
2. That depends on how quickly you want to fly. It's simply your time versus your money spent.
3. Yes, but technically paying somebody to build your aircraft is not legal. It is legal to buy an used experimental, but then you are unable to obtain the builder's certificate.

If you want a little more space the RV-14 is a good choice, but you'll want to put a 390 in it. The RV-10 is more expensive primarily due to the 540 and more aluminum in the kit.

I didn't notice that he had a continental 360. All bets are off.
Last edited by leffler on Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bob Leffler
RV-10 - Flying
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

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captain_john
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Re: RV Choice

Post by captain_john »

Whoah!!!

1) That is a CONTI io 360 he has!

No dice... we only have Lyc trusses so you would have to fab your own Conti truss. Possible, but analysis paralysis would probably be strong.

2) Yes! Sell the motor...

3) The used market is hit or miss. Finding a project in some state of completion is possible. Perhaps the ULTIMATE quickbuild (a completed airplane) might be an option as well?

Does this help?

:) CJ
RV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!

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bruceh
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Re: RV Choice

Post by bruceh »

Yes, us engineer types will do the analysis paralysis dance. With an experimental kit built you can get really bogged down with all of the decisions left up to the builder. Pick your mission and stick to it. Don't get distracted by the latest doo-hickeys to come available, or you'll never finish.

Here are some of the choices you're going to decide upon:
Seating - side by side or tandem?
Tailwheel or tricycle gear?
VFR or IFR?
Fixed Pitch or Constant Speed?
Tip-up or slider canopy?
Fuel Injection or Carb?
Glass or Steam gauges?
Circuit breakers or fuses?
Aerobatic or not?
Full primer of interior skins, or minimal?

Once you decide on those, then you'll have to decide on vendors/brands for everything.

The best way to get an RV quickly is to buy one that is already flying. The next best way is to pick up someone else's project and complete it. There are some real deals out there if you take your time and go looking. Building isn't for everyone, but there is plenty of online assistance (forums like this, blogs, etc). You can farm out some areas of the project like the panel wiring, interiors, painting, etc. There are some builder assist places that will get you flying faster, but that has some additional costs, of course. Otherwise, go take a SportAir workshop on RV building, and see if you can imagine yourself putting in 10 to 20+ hours a week of building for the next 4 years or so.

Go fly one first! Van's RV's are wonderful airplanes.
Bruce Hill
RV-9A N5771H flying over 1100 hours!
Build Log at http://www.overthehills.com/RV-9A-Project
Blog at https://flyingoverthehills.wordpress.com/
EAA Tech Counselor, A&P

J A Smith
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Re: RV Choice

Post by J A Smith »

Wow, great answers, Thanks.
Thanks Bruce. I'm already hooked on flying one. The Dr that is next to my two hangers has an RV-4.
To this list I answer and ask??
Seating - side by side or tandem?I'm a side by side guy I like to have company
Tailwheel or tricycle gear?Either, but like the tricycle a little better, what resells best?
VFR or IFR? VFR, I'm very IFR proficient. I know my limitations and if I was IFR rated I would take chances
Fixed Pitch or Constant Speed?Either, but with good power I like constant speed
Tip-up or slider canopy?Which is easier to get in and out? My Commander is tough on my 6'4" 260 lb body
Fuel Injection or Carb? Either, would depend on engine of choice. I would bet Carb would fit the KISS mode
Glass or Steam gauges?Combination. I don't totally trust a single glass dash. Old guy in me!
Circuit breakers or fuses?Circuit Breakers. Any pros or cons there? all I see is safety issues
Aerobatic or not? Non Aerobatic
Full primer of interior skins, or minimal? Decisions, decisions. Give me the pro and con
I really appreciate all the comments.
So there are no factory available mounts for the Continental IO 360D ??
I guess I need to check the mounting of the 360 Vs the 390.
I thought the 390 was a replacement for the 360 but was 30-40 lbs heavier.
When I decided to re power my 172 I was concerned with weight.
I researched the Cont. engine line and found the IO-360D was heavier than the 0-300, but not much.
The IO 360 D is listed as 327 lbs
IO-360-C, CB, D,
DB, G, GB, H & HB 6
157 kW @ 2800 113.8 x 98.5 mm 5899 cm³ 148.3 kg
100/100LL 8.5:1 1500 hrs or
12 years 210 hp @ 2800 4.44 x 3.88 in 360 cu.in 327 lbs
I do like the safety and smoothness of a 6 cylinder. Power pulse timing and prop bite I think are advantages.
Just because I have a good Continental I-0 360 Don't think I locked into using it.
Plus I've raced V-6 engines for years and set many NHRA records with them.
The biggest thing is the clock is ticking on my age.
Realistically my health may not stay good for a 4 year build period. I'd rather be flying!
If you are present and assist in a build can you get the builder's certificate.
I assume it is important to have that certificate for resale and doing annuals.
Sorry I'm so full of questions. I seem to have come across a group qualified to give good answers.
I'll probably wear you guys out.
Thanks,
JAS

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bullojm1
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Re: RV Choice

Post by bullojm1 »

J A Smith wrote: Seating - side by side or tandem?I'm a side by side guy I like to have company
I agree 100% on this, and that is why I build a -7. However, it seems you are a bigger guy, and the side-by-side seating might be a tight fit. You might want to look into Anti-Splat Aero's "Almost a RV14 Seat Mod" (http://antisplataero.com/Almost_a_RV14_Seat_Mod.html) which gives you more shoulder room in the SLIDER RV-6/7/9 (not available on a tip-up). Or just build/buy a -14!
J A Smith wrote: Tailwheel or tricycle gear?Either, but like the tricycle a little better, what resells best?
Get an hour or so in a tailwheel RV before you make this decision. I was a 0 hour tailwheel pilot when I started to build, and now I have over 400 hours. The RV is a puppy dog when it comes to how gentle their tailwheel handles. I don't think there is much, if any, resale premium to a nosewheel RV.
J A Smith wrote: Fixed Pitch or Constant Speed?Either, but with good power I like constant speed
CS is a good option for a RV because of its wide speed envelope. With FP, you pretty much have to choose if you want climb or cruise performance. With the CS prop, you get both, albeit with extra cost, weight and complexity.
J A Smith wrote: Tip-up or slider canopy?Which is easier to get in and out? My Commander is tough on my 6'4" 260 lb body
Tip-up has amazing visibility. Slider has the option for the above mentioned mod. I would say both are equally as difficult to get in and out of. My recommendation would be to find some RV's near you and try to get in and out of them.
J A Smith wrote: Circuit breakers or fuses?Circuit Breakers. Any pros or cons there? all I see is safety issues
I used fuses in mine, with one CB for the alternator field. I figured if fuses are good enough for a car, they should be good enough for my airplane. in my 15 years of flying, I have never had a CB blow that resetting it fixed the issue in the air. Fuses are cheap, easy to install and don't take up any panel space.
J A Smith wrote: Full primer of interior skins, or minimal? Decisions, decisions. Give me the pro and con
Full primer adds to resale value and is advisable if you live in humid climates, especially by sale water. The aluminum shipped with the Van's kits has a layer of Alclad on it, which is very resistant to corrosion. My 5 year old unpainted RV has barely any corrosion on the skins (note, I do keep it in a hangar).
J A Smith wrote: So there are no factory available mounts for the Continental IO 360D ??

Not as far as I know. I don't even think I've heard of a RV with a continental. You spoke earlier about resale value - putting a lycoming, or lycoming clone engine in your RV is the best way to assure high resale value. However, stranger things have been done other than putting a continental engine in a RV. A few are flying around with auto conversions, and a recent RV-8 just took flight with a 150HP radial! (https://www.facebook.com/radialconversions/).
J A Smith wrote: Realistically my health may not stay good for a 4 year build period. I'd rather be flying!
If you are present and assist in a build can you get the builder's certificate.
I assume it is important to have that certificate for resale and doing annuals.
There are many people out there that offer builders assistance - on paper you get to state you built 51% of the airplane, and that gives you the ability to qualify for the repairman certificate. However, there is a huge market for second hand RV's, and plenty of A&P's who will work on them!
Mike Bullock
http://www.rvplane.com
RV-7 | Superior IO-360 | Whirlwind 200RV
Garmin GTN650 | GRT Dual Sport SX EFIS
Status: FLYING!

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leffler
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Re: RV Choice

Post by leffler »

J A Smith wrote: So there are no factory available mounts for the Continental IO 360D ??
bullojm1 wrote:Not as far as I know. I don't even think I've heard of a RV with a continental. You spoke earlier about resale value - putting a lycoming, or lycoming clone engine in your RV is the best way to assure high resale value. However, stranger things have been done other than putting a continental engine in a RV. A few are flying around with auto conversions, and a recent RV-8 just took flight with a 150HP radial! (https://www.facebook.com/radialconversions/).
Actually, there is......

One of Van's demo RV-10s has a Continental. They were looking for alternative engines. I bet you can guess on how many they sold. The Lycoming had more HP, so naturally what RV-10 builder would ever install an engine with less HP than his peers! :grin: Much to the chagrin of Van's.
Bob Leffler
RV-10 - Flying
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

thecapt
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Re: RV Choice

Post by thecapt »

I've seen 2 RV8's with Mazda Rotary engines in them. They sound like bumble bees when they fly over.

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plbarrett2004
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Re: RV Choice

Post by plbarrett2004 »

All good advice above.

I'll reiterate / add a couple of thoughts.

Bruce hit the nail on the head. Pick a mission and stick to it. From what you've described it sounds like you want side-by-side seating, VFR, non-aerobatic airplane. This narrows the choice down to the RV-7, 9, 12, or 14. If you don't need it to be aerobatic, then the 9 or 12 could fit your mission. You mention health as a concern for the build. For this reason, you may want to give some consideration to the RV-12. Quicker to build, and with the LSA option you have the additional benefit of being able to fly without a 3rd class medical. (Granted reform in this area is in the House for vote). I'm building an -8, and I love building. But I love flying MORE. From the situation you describe, I'd look for a completed RV for sale. Plenty hit the market all the time. Just be sure to have either an A/P or an experienced builder thoroughly review the aircraft prior to purchase. As for tailwheel, vs nose wheel, I'm building a tailwheel and I have 0 tailwheel time. I agree with Mike that the nose wheel doesn't earn any additional resale value. From what I understand, an argument can be made that a tailwheel is better on grass strips. Which brings us back to... pick a mission and stick to it. And finally, you'll often pay a significant time penalty for any major modification to the Van's kits. For this reason, I would sell the continental. You'll have more options with the cash in hand, and likely a quicker build.

The best thing you can do in making the decision is to climb into the models you are considering. RV guys love to show off their planes, so it shouldn't be too hard to test the fit of the different models and options. When I was considering what to build, I did exactly that. Beer is always a good way to break the ice / bribe the owners. With the right amount of beer, you can get builders, particularly Bullock, to do ANYTHING. No matter what choice you make, you can't go wrong with any of Van's kits!!
Peter Barrett
CFI, CFII, MEI
RV-8 Fastback - Fuselage in progress
Build Log @ papalimabravo.com
SEMPER FIDELIS

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