Hot Wings?

bmurrish · Post by **bmurrish** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:40 pm

Looks like the only wings I will be having anytime soon is going to be the kind you eat. I got a letter from Van's today stating they plan on shipping my -8 wings on May23rd, which means I probably won't see them until the first of June. Ouch!!! So for those of you who were worried about me passing you, no worries!!!

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:18 am

Good thing you ordered them when you did!

In the meanwhile you can come here and help me with mine, Bill!

CJ

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:53 pm

Darn, I couldn't click on this topic fast enough, thinking someone had come up with a way to heat the wings of RV's so they could get through an icing layer....
here in Vancouver, we pretty well have two choices to get out of the river valley we live in-over the ocean or over the mountains, with MEA's above 9000'.

Post by **Spike** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:00 pm

I have a feeling that if you came up with such a solution you could become fairly wealthy

Darn, I couldn't click on this topic fast enough, thinking someone had come up with a way to heat the wings of RV's so they could get through an icing layer....
here in Vancouver, we pretty well have two choices to get out of the river valley we live in-over the ocean or over the mountains, with MEA's above 9000'.

Submitted via email

Leighton · Post by **Leighton** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:49 pm

You could install either a set of nozzles down the leading edge or a strip of porous metal of some sort (ala de-icing on WWII aircraft, like the Devon), and plug that into a tube that you feed with warm air running down the inside of the LE (if your running a turbine, bleed air off the compressor, (you'll get a minor drop in power, and a rise in EGT), if a piston, make some kind of muff setup around the cylinders, or install a heat pump (?) )

anyway, the long and short of it ends up blowing warm air accross the wing, you'll get the anti-ice, and probably more lift as a side effect(?)

i know this probably isnt the most practical of solutions, but you know how it is, ask a silly question, get a silly answer...

damn, i shoulda been an engineer. heh heh

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:24 pm

...or maybe route the exhaust gas out the wingtips!

CJ

Leighton · Post by **Leighton** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:36 pm

see thats what im talking about Capt.

you and i should go into business together, form our own skunkworks.

bmurrish · Post by **bmurrish** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:32 pm

And to think it all started out about me talking about the only kind of hot wings I would be getting any time soon would be the kind you eat. I love this place.

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:47 am

Hahaha, Imagine the noise of the exhaust flowing from the root to the tip!

It would sound like a Jake brake!

Kick it on while on final and truckers would think a SEMI is dropping from the sky!

CJ

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:40 pm

[quote="Leighton"]You could install either a set of nozzles down the leading edge or a strip of porous metal of some sort (ala de-icing on WWII aircraft, like the Devon), and plug that into a tube that you feed with warm air running down the inside of the LE (if your running a turbine, bleed air off the compressor, (you'll get a minor drop in power, and a rise in EGT), if a piston, make some kind of muff setup around the cylinders, or install a heat pump (?) )

This approach was tried years ago, and I don't think it worked as there wasn't enough heat or flow available from the exhaust, compared to the surface area of the wings to be heated above freezing. When the heat is needed the most-descending through a freezing layer on approach- the exhaust heating available is the lowest of the trip. Recall the Fairchild C-119, with two big radials, had half-a-dozen huge Janitrol heaters in the cargo compartment ceiling, solely to heat the wings.

I would think some kind of really thin, wide material that can be taped around the leading edge without changing its shape and that would allow alcohol to seep from its surface is the answer.Sort of like making our own "weeping wing".

For decades, don't you feel that little airplanes have been treated pretty much as toys, as they are too dependent on weather to be used as reliable transportation? The two big obstacles were the inability to detect and display thunderstorms and shed ice. With the recent uplinking of ground-based radar returns to handhelds, etc. that leaves only the one obstacle.

Leighton · Post by **Leighton** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:17 pm

perhaps mould Peltiers to the LE of the wing? not sure about the weight penalty, but you'd have to have a pretty serious power supply for 20some feet of wing.

The C-130 uses bleed air circulating around the inside of the LE, not sure if they have any other devices but thats where i drew my inspiration.

Friendship? they have a pneumatic system of boots on the wing that inflate and deflate on a cycle, though that is De-ice as opposed to anti-ice.

What about some kind of electrical system, similar to the one on the back windscreen of most cars? that'd be light, wouldnt draw much power, and would work a treat.

whats your take on it Scott? There has to be a way around this whole icing thing, other than to submit and cruise at a lower altitude.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:24 am

[

whats your take on it Scott? There has to be a way around this whole icing thing, other than to submit and cruise at a lower altitude.[/quote]

I know some folks are working on running a very large electrical charge along the leading edge for a moment every now and then, apparently it works, but I don't know if it causes the metal to flex or the ice to explode from the shock. I would think the capacitors necessary to do this must be pretty large, and lethal when charged.
It's hard to heat a leading edge above freezing, and only turbines have sufficient airflow for this, and even then, the engines go to a higher idle speed when ice is selected on.
The weeping wing system is heavy, and limited to the amount of alcohol we can carry in a plastic tank in the baggage compartment. This still leaves the propellor, engine inlets, canopy and tail surfaces unprotected.
I wonder if there's either a coating or a tape that would reduce the ability of precipitation to stick to a surface with a below-freezing temperature?
It's true that some vehicles are now available with heated front windshields, but I suspect they must have 100 or 200 amp alternators to handle this load.
During the drive to the hangar and back, I've been thinking about something a little different: how to stop rainwater ingress through the flush fuel-caps when the aircraft is picketed outside on a cross-country. Initially, I was thinking a big suction cup would work great, but realized that the fuelcap would probably not support a vacuum above it, as it would surely leak around the two O-rings.
So I wondered about a circular cap with a magnetic strip under a weatherstripping foam around its edge, but the problems with mounting the matching magnet in the fuel tank's inner skin surface look unreliable and difficult when the tank is already finished.
Something that seals off the cap and is heavy enough to not be blown off came next, but that would add to the weight to carry on a cross-country.
don't call these experimentals for nothin....

Leighton · Post by **Leighton** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:53 am

heres what i propose.

cover the leading edge with some kind of laminate (thus electrically isolating the element from the Leading edge itself), im thinking along the lines of Duraseal (the plastic covering that kids put on there school books, not sure what you guys in the US call that) run a bunch of filament along the leading edge on top of the laminate (do it in a spiral, zig zags, pretty pictures etc) cover THAT with a second layer of the laminate to protect from airflow, corrosion etc etc
hook a bunch of power up to it and see if it works.

problems:
1. the heating elements actually being able to heat the top layer of laminate
2. as discussed, the power requirements (read: large)
3. WEIGHT
4. its just a stoopid idea
5. melting the laminate
6. it just might work and i havent patented it yet, damn.
7. im thinking far too simple and people are going to think im Russian(?)

to anyone that is contemplating an electrical deice system, might i also suggest a weight on wheels switch and a circut breaker in the system...

alternativly..... fly lower and let it beat you, thus crushing the pioneering spirit and defeating the purpose that we're all building planes in the first place.

Ask not what Leighton can do for you....

....But what you can do for Leighton.

Leighton · Post by **Leighton** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:57 am

just had another thought, even if the power requirement is just plain silly, your not going to use it that often anyway, so who cares?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:37 pm

Leighton wrote:just had another thought, even if the power requirement is just plain silly, your not going to use it that often anyway, so who cares?

The weight of the equipment necessary to provide that current is what is the problem. How often it may be required is not the issue, and, with MEA's still above the freezing level half the year in some parts of North America, descending is not an option, either.

The electrically-heated "mat" has actually been used a few times in the past. The Lockheed Starfighter used the mats for anti-icing the inlet lip and spike, the matt-black parts visible from the side. There was a name for them, that ended in -mat, I think, but I forget.

And almost every icing-approved airplane flying today has a hot window, with the wires so fine as to be almost transparent.

Is there some proprietary coating that can be applied before flying if there's a chance that icing might be encountered? That would eliminate the problems of also protecting the prop blades, etc. I'm thinking along the lines of the automotive rain repellent we use so much here on the West Coast. Above about 30mph, wipers aren't needed, even when overtaking a semi, the raindrops remain as drops and don't spread into a film, and are blown off the window, like stars going by at warp speed on STar TRek.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:43 pm

[Thermawings....

mustang · Post by **mustang** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:22 am

For this problem you could get a roll of 500 mph tape. This HD aluminum tape will stick on a jet at 500 mph, hence the name. It is a 3-M product and pricey, but not as expensive as an engine failure from water in tanks. If your aircraft will be left or stored outside where it can possibly rain, simply cut off a square of this tape and stick it down over the caps. Guaranteed not to leak or your money back! On an unpainted wing a person would then have trouble locating the tank fill holes.

Cheers, Pete

tshort · Post by **tshort** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:45 pm

Just ordered mine today ... will have to see what the ship date is.
Called to confirm that they got the fax and they had alread entered the order into the system and started processing it...

Should be done with the HS, VS, and most of the rudder / elevators by tomorrow PM. I guess I'll have to do some fiberglass work for the next couple months!

Thomas

Post by **Spike** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:20 pm

Congrats!

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:36 pm

Teflon ?

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