Rivets/Riveting

Andy G · Post by **Andy G** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:56 pm

Well fellas,

Progress has been slow but, constant. Still working on the HS. Finished riveting all the AN470AD4-6s to the rear spar reinforcement, and they all squeezed nicely. However, when it came time to riet the elevator hinge brackets on, I couldn't get them to squeeze into anything airworthy. They kept "pushing over" or flattening. I spoke to Vans about it. They said to hit it w/ the gun and bucking bar, which I tried today, w/ much better results.

My question: The rivets that fasten the reinforcement bars to the rear spar are only 1 length longer than the hinge bracket rivets, but there is so much ,ore material between the reenforcment bars compared to the hinge bracket (part of why I think they won't squeeze, and are generally tougher to set correctly).

Just interested in how you guys make your go/no go decision on rivets. What stays, what do you drill out? I know a good rivet when I see one but, sometimes I think, well, that's airworthy. I have seen people leave rivets on that I would have never let go.

Back when I worked on Hornets, all the rivets that came out of Boeing where great.

Just wanted to through this out to you guys and see.

-A

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:06 pm

The Boeing riveters are professional skilled workers, and that's ALL they do...

Remember that the RV's are WAY overbuilt! Unless it's just aweful looking, or you have too many in a series are that are not right, don't sweat a few here and there that aren't perfect.

Do you have the rivet gauges?

RV7Factory · Post by **RV7Factory** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:36 pm

IMHO Go-no-Go is sort of a personal decision. I mean there are BAD rivets that should be replaced (as you pointed out), but then there are others that aren't perfect but will do the job. Telling the difference between the two is sometimes hard, and comes with experience.

There were several times early on in the project that I caused more damage by drilling a rivet out that was less than perfect but good enough. Knowing what I know now I would have left well enough alone.

I know this isn't much help, but I do feel your pain.

JohnR · Post by **JohnR** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:28 pm

Andy, I would agree with Brad, as you get further along you will get a better feel for what to accept. My approach was if I wasn;t happy with it or had second thoughts when I first looked at it I replaced it becasue I knew I would just stew about it later. Like Brad, I drilled some out and caused additional problems, most of those I would now leave. All part of the learning process.

Fun isn't it?

Andy G · Post by **Andy G** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:24 pm

It is fun, I love it. I have to get over being frustrated when I can't find time to build. So many things take up my time, sometimes it's tough. Spending time w/ family is so important, I wouldn't want Christina to ever feel like she was playing second fiddle to "some project" that I spend hours on. Now, w/ the holidays, we've had my family here and Christina's family coming in a week, it's gonna be tough to find time.

On the bright side, Christina's family is very interested in helping/learning about the plane, so that'll be fun.

bmurrish · Post by **bmurrish** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:52 pm

Andy, It sounds like the rivets are either too long or you are not keeping your squeezer straight on the rivet. Give me a buzz and I will try to explain it over the phone if you are still not getting it.

P.S. That's what you getting for moving so far north.

prestwich · Post by **prestwich** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:24 am

Yeah, Andy, that's the zact spot that I got stuck on too, and after posting pics here and getting feedback, I drilled several elevator hinge bracket rivets and re-did 'em.

They are the longest ones to contend with up to that point. I squeezed 'em, but I found that it took some time and practice to keep the squeezer perpendicular to the rivet.

I found that by squeezing the trigger slowly, I was able to squeeze the rivet in slow motion, and I could actually compensate for misalignment mid-squeeze by rocking the tool if I saw the rivet starting to squeeze out to one side.

I've got a few rivets on the HS that I doubt anyone else here would have let slide, but hell, I'm not a young man anymore and my life isn't worth all *that* much bother.

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:26 am

The worst driven rivet loses only 10% of it's total available holding ability. That's according to Reynolds. Even at that though I don't stand for crappy looking rivets. I have spent a lot of time drilling out rivets and I believe some of them have been the same ones you talking about. Remember also one and a half times the diameter of the rivet sticking out to form the shop head any more than that and the rivet will easily squish over.

Mark Browning · Post by **Mark Browning** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:10 pm

HI Andy

As I am nearing the completion of the fuse kit I have set so many rivets now ive lost count.
The deal is with riveting I have found is to take your time when squeezing long rivets make sure the Squeezer is square on to the rivet (not all that easy to eyeball sometimes) and squeeze the trigger very slowly and watch the shop head form. If you see the shank starting to push over in the wrong direction use the squeezer to ease it back whilst keeping light finger pressure on the trigger.

When shooting with the gun and bucking same deal just feather the trigger to slowly form the shop head, as the head starts to form say about 1/4 of the way if it hasn’t started to push over it won't & you are there.

As a matter of interest Vans supply’s OPPS Rivets for the AN426 range
These little fellas will get you out of the crap.
Drill out the AN426.If the hole has widened drill out to #30 then use a counter sink. Then drop an opps rivet in. The head looks the same size although when you set it you will find the shop head some what bigger.
Final point is if you are setting rivets and every one is a good one you’re on a roll keeping going. If you set a few bad one's Stop and have a beer.

And Try again tomorrow.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Mark

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:13 pm

Mark Browning wrote:HI Andy

As I am nearing the completion of the fuse kit I have set so many rivets now ive lost count. <snip>
Cheers
Mark

Check out my 'Numbers' page...I'm actually counting them as I go!!

http://www.chadandbrittne.com/Numbers.htm

N200PF · Post by **N200PF** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:57 pm

NO WAY!!!

You could be the first ever to actually count all the way through the build! ...better publish that in the POH for you -7!

- Peter

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:43 am

I remember reading on the old RV-List somewhere that a rivet that has been completely toenailed over still retains almost 90% of the strength of a properly driven rivet. Van figured this in when he calculated the rivet spacing on the RV's. If it bothers you, drill it out. If it looks like it might hold, it probably will. You'd have to screw up a BUNCH of rivets for this thing to fall apart. But you worked on jets so you probably know that better than us.