skin dents/smilies

jeff7 · Post by **jeff7** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:19 pm

First post. I spent all day finishing my HS. Some of my first rivets - skin to HS708 ended up with dents in the skin and some smilies. I drilled out about 8 rivets on one of the HS708 to try and fix some of the dents. I ended up using some oversize rivets. Structurally, it turned out fine but can some of the imperfections be filled in at the paint stage so it doesn't look like a monkey's backside? Thanks to you more experienced builders.

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:31 pm

Hey Jeff!

to Rivetbangers!! Your dents can be easily filled in the end game when painting. It wouldn't be a tail section without the personal touches of the beginning builder!

Don't worry about it. We've ALL been there and done that.

Typically, it's better to plan to fill later than drill out rivets to try and fix the dent from the inside. Drilling rivets is something you'll get good at, but it's almost always better to leave an imperfect rivet (unless it's really bad...) as drilling could introduce a larger hole and next size rivet. RV's are so over-engineered, that an improperly set rivet here and there won't compromise anything structurally...just ego's...

jeff7 · Post by **jeff7** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:37 pm

Thanks Chad. I wont win any awards for having the best looking HS but I'm fairly sure it will hold together. I assume a "bondo" type filler used to fill the dents at paint. I need to find someone in my area to come have a look to make sure I'm doing things basically right.

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:39 pm

Jeff, Welcome!

Say, perhaps lowering your pressure a bit?

You won't need more than 40 PSI to drive a 3/32" rivet. 35 is usually more than enough. Perhaps that could be your problem?

CJ

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:47 pm

Wear those smilies with pride. YOU built it and it will be great!

painless · Post by **painless** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:48 pm

Agree with CJ on the pressure. Are you using a swivel head flush set on your rivet gun??

Welcome to the journey!

Regards,

jeff7 · Post by **jeff7** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:56 pm

I'll have a look at the pressure.

jeff7 · Post by **jeff7** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:58 pm

I called a friend of mine today that is working on a 4 and he said a swivel head set was essential - I'll order monday.

painless · Post by **painless** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:18 pm

Yeah Jeff, a swivel head really makes a difference.

One other way that you can end up with dents is to have your bucking bar sitting at an angle to the rivet when you set it. The bar can bounce and a corner can then make a "reverse" dent in your skin. Just another thing to watch out for, especially when you are placing the bucking bar on the rivet blindly, which you will do often throughout the project.

JohnR · Post by **JohnR** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:07 am

Welcome aboard Jeff! Most of us do personalize our planes when we are working on the tail kit. There is some good advice above about checking the air pressure and the swivel head is something I like also.

Have fun and keep us posted on progress.

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:10 pm

Well since it hasn't been mentioned yet. Don't lift your gun off of your work until it completely stops.

aparchment · Post by **aparchment** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:08 pm

jim_geo wrote:Well since it hasn't been mentioned yet. Don't lift your gun off of your work until it completely stops.

Don't lift the bucking bar either

prestwich · Post by **prestwich** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:38 pm

Hey Jeff, welcome to RB! I was terrified to start driving rivets, but ended up doing pretty well. I did buy a swivel set but never used it, and, frankly, don't recommend them. I think they can partially compensate for poor form, but I think it's better to develop good form, and it isn't all that difficult. Practice on some scrap! I had planned to practice at least two hundred rivets, but felt I was ready for the HS after a dozen.

My suggestions, in addition to seconding those of others: Look back and forth from the rivet gun to the bucking bar. Make sure both are perpendicular to the rivet. Make sure the rivet set is centered on the rivet. Hold the tools firmly. When you squeeze the trigger, do it firmly and decisively. I was pretty surprised to see how short the learning curve is when I finally went at it.

A good landing starts long before final approach, and a well driven rivet starts before you pull the trigger. Make sure you're damn happy with the alignment first. Then it's easy. And post a pic of that airplane part! Congrats on the first giant step!

jeff7 · Post by **jeff7** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:04 pm

Looks worse than it is. Best quess is an 1/8 inch indentation. Superfill is it?

Lorin Dueck · Post by **Lorin Dueck** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:05 pm

Welcome Jeff !!

All comments so far have been good.

But here's another thing you might consider ... take one of the the EAA SportAir sheet metal basics or RV assembly classes.
1 weekend and a few $$ will get you a lot of help, build your confidence, teach you some new tricks, and you'll meet a lot of great folks who share your same passion.

Enjoy!!

Lorin D
RV-9A (Wings - Ailerons)
N194LD (reserved)

dons · Post by **dons** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:02 am

Welcome Jeff, I too am working on my tail. There are many ways to do a good job, you need to develop your own in such a way that you are comfortable with the method. A LOT of things can be fixed if you make a mistake, I lost sleep over something simple when I first started, but found all kinds of answers when I looked through forums like this and builder sites. There is a wealth of information available and a large number of people willing to offer good advice and opinions, this is a great place for that. Learn lots and have fun doing it.

777Dave · Post by **777Dave** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:31 pm

I took the EAA sponsored sheet metal course here in Toronto last month and found it very helpful! Highly recommend. Now as long as I don't forget everything before I start building

Hopefully this summer.

JohnR · Post by **JohnR** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:21 am

Dave, welcome to Rivet Bangers! Don't worry, you won't forget. A few rivets and you'll be going just fine.

RVNewsletter · Post by **RVNewsletter** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:43 am

You know , as someone who has more than their share of smilies, I passed 1,500 hours on my project and I'm just now getting to the point where I'm understanding the art of riveting.

Yes, pressure is one thing -- and important thing -- but I've also found that how you hold the bucking bar is equally important. It's the bucking bar that's doing all of the work. The mistake I made was actually the amount of pressure -- too much -- I was putting on the bucking bar.

I can't really describe how much to use, but generally enough to maintain control of it, but not so much that it can't move off the shop head.

This pageon Checkoway's site is really good.

A smilie occurs, when it's the rivet gun... not the bucking bar... that's lifting off the work. Also, count "one thousand one... one thousand two" after you release the trigger to get in the habit of leaving the gun on the work until it's stopped.

RVNewsletter · Post by **RVNewsletter** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:47 am

Jeff, do you have a bigger picture? I just looked at it again. I thought you were referring to smilies, but those are dents, and they look to be equally formed around the rivet.

Can you post a picture of what flush head rivet set you're using? And what pressure?