In the beginning...
In the beginning...
I plan on starting my empennage in the next month or so and I really want to keep my mistakes to a minimum.
I was wondering if you all would share with me your thoughts:
#1 three specific things in your personal view to avoid or pay particular attention to.
#2 three specific items( unusual items or tools) you felt were necessary in speeding up and/ or improving your project.
Mom always said to learn from other peoples mistakes and to make mine original.
I was wondering if you all would share with me your thoughts:
#1 three specific things in your personal view to avoid or pay particular attention to.
#2 three specific items( unusual items or tools) you felt were necessary in speeding up and/ or improving your project.
Mom always said to learn from other peoples mistakes and to make mine original.
- captain_john
- Sparky
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- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
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Re: In the beginning...
#1wurger wrote: #1 three specific things in your personal view to avoid or pay particular attention to.
#2 three specific items( unusual items or tools) you felt were necessary in speeding up and/ or improving your project.
a) Understand the entire process and why you are doing it.
b) Test fit everything.
c) Use a rivet gauge.
#2
a) Get a pneumatic squeezer. It improves consistency.
b) Scotchbrite roloc wheels and an angle die grinder.
c) Get a DREMEL! It does everything!
Hope this helps!
CJ
RV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
#1
Take a intro builders class - Tom Emery at WPA RV builders is highly recommended. A small investment in the overall project, but makes things go MUCH smoother.
Read over the entire page of plans carefully - there are often small things (flush rivets, etc) called out there that may not be mentioned in the instructions.
Think twice before drilling any hole, check your drill bit size, etc. Like my dad says, "measure twice, cut once."
#2
Definitely the pneumatic squeezer. Worth the investment. If you can tolerate used tools the Yard has some great deals.
I agree, the Dremel is invaluable
Lots of clamps - the cleco alligator type, and multiple types and sizes of others - you're always needing to clamp something down for shaping, drilling, deburring, etc.
I have to reiterate, if you have little or no experience with this kind of metalworking / building I think a class is the best thing you can do to start things off smoothly.
Thomas
Take a intro builders class - Tom Emery at WPA RV builders is highly recommended. A small investment in the overall project, but makes things go MUCH smoother.
Read over the entire page of plans carefully - there are often small things (flush rivets, etc) called out there that may not be mentioned in the instructions.
Think twice before drilling any hole, check your drill bit size, etc. Like my dad says, "measure twice, cut once."
#2
Definitely the pneumatic squeezer. Worth the investment. If you can tolerate used tools the Yard has some great deals.
I agree, the Dremel is invaluable
Lots of clamps - the cleco alligator type, and multiple types and sizes of others - you're always needing to clamp something down for shaping, drilling, deburring, etc.
I have to reiterate, if you have little or no experience with this kind of metalworking / building I think a class is the best thing you can do to start things off smoothly.
Thomas
- Wicked Stick
- Class B
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- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:00 pm
- Location: KEWB
Re: In the beginning...
The guys have listed some nice tips and tools to have, along with the suggestion of taking a builders class. If you don't have time to fly to one of the classes, then at least find someone nearby building and go help him out, or have him visit your work area and help you along.wurger wrote:I plan on starting my empennage in the next month or so and I really want to keep my mistakes to a minimum.
I was wondering if you all would share with me your thoughts:
#1 three specific things in your personal view to avoid or pay particular attention to.
#2 three specific items( unusual items or tools) you felt were necessary in speeding up and/ or improving your project.
Mom always said to learn from other peoples mistakes and to make mine original.
Getting hands on experience will help you use all those great tools, and the experience and joy of building will be less stressful that way.
Dave "WS" Rogers
RV-8 Fuselage
I hope I can keep this down to three items. LOL
My first big mistake, which absolutely floored me, was to start drilling out my stab skins using a # 30 drill instead of a #40 drill. (#30 is bigger!) I even use drill stops on my #30, and #40 drill stems. Co-incidentally, these drill stops have colored springs on them. I discovered just the other day, that the colored springs are the same colors as the clecos, silver and copper etc. Guess what??? The springs on the drill stops are for same size holes as the clecos. Now there is an easier way to grab the right drill, pick the drill collar color co-inciding with the clecos used in the punched holes.
You might be saying to yourself, "Well! How could anyone be so stupid as to drill oversize holes in a skin?" It's not hard! After drilling a whole bunch of #30 holes in the framework, you grab the drill, and start drilling without switching bits on the skin. A very large number of jobs in building an RV are almost mindless. Like, a moron could do them and be unchallenged. You tend to get complacent with the mindless jobs and, OOOOPS! Like most Boo-BOOs on an RV, they can be corrected or worked around. I simply installed the next size up rivet in the couple of holes that I drilled oversize. Another option is to install "Oooops rivets, which have an oversize shank but the same size head as an AN426 D3, the most common rivet used. OK, that was number one.
The second thing to do is to measure all the rivets for protrusion on the shophead side. Use the little Avery gauge for this. Van tends to keep the rivet length minimal, probably so we won't warp them or fold them over. If you prime both pieces of metal, the rivets get a little bit shorter than they should be. So measure the part that sticks out from the two pieces to be joined and trim them to size if need be from the next size up rivet.
Number three is advice from an old pilot friend of mine who is also building an RV-8. He told me, drill and rivet 10 rivets a day. Do this every day for a month, or until you start your kit. After you are done, each day, drill them all out using a punch to mark the rivet head, drill to the bottom of the countersink/dimple, and use the reversed end of a drill bit to snap the heads off, then punch out the remainder. Do this without enlarging the hole. If the hole becomes enlarged, (bad boy!) take a longer rivet, and setting it in your hand squeezer, slowly, and carefully squeeze it unsupported until you can grow it (fatten it) enough to fill the enlarged hole. Now use it as any other rivet. Squeeze it normally. Practice back-riveting with your rivet gun the same way, then go drill them out. Practice riveting normally with your rivet gun and use a bucking bar with your work clamped to the bench. Use masking tape over your flush rivet heads for unmarked surfaces. Use a little masking tape on your round head squeezer set for unmarked rivet heads. Do this stuff every day and you will get good!
You will be surprised at how many rivets you will want to drill out. When you are dealing with skeleton riveting, where sometimes three pieces of metal are being held together, it gets very interesting. I am always amazed at how many deformed, warped and twisted rivet shapes I can create. I should be nominated for "Original Metal Sculpture" shaped from rivets!
You can squeeze about 50% of the rivets in the empennage. When you have a choice, squeeze the rivets rather than buck them. Always support your work by clamping it securely to the bench and the pieces together to help you hold the pieces snugly together while riveting.
OK, that could be more than three things but... what the heck! We teach what we need to learn.
Cheers, Pete
My first big mistake, which absolutely floored me, was to start drilling out my stab skins using a # 30 drill instead of a #40 drill. (#30 is bigger!) I even use drill stops on my #30, and #40 drill stems. Co-incidentally, these drill stops have colored springs on them. I discovered just the other day, that the colored springs are the same colors as the clecos, silver and copper etc. Guess what??? The springs on the drill stops are for same size holes as the clecos. Now there is an easier way to grab the right drill, pick the drill collar color co-inciding with the clecos used in the punched holes.
You might be saying to yourself, "Well! How could anyone be so stupid as to drill oversize holes in a skin?" It's not hard! After drilling a whole bunch of #30 holes in the framework, you grab the drill, and start drilling without switching bits on the skin. A very large number of jobs in building an RV are almost mindless. Like, a moron could do them and be unchallenged. You tend to get complacent with the mindless jobs and, OOOOPS! Like most Boo-BOOs on an RV, they can be corrected or worked around. I simply installed the next size up rivet in the couple of holes that I drilled oversize. Another option is to install "Oooops rivets, which have an oversize shank but the same size head as an AN426 D3, the most common rivet used. OK, that was number one.
The second thing to do is to measure all the rivets for protrusion on the shophead side. Use the little Avery gauge for this. Van tends to keep the rivet length minimal, probably so we won't warp them or fold them over. If you prime both pieces of metal, the rivets get a little bit shorter than they should be. So measure the part that sticks out from the two pieces to be joined and trim them to size if need be from the next size up rivet.
Number three is advice from an old pilot friend of mine who is also building an RV-8. He told me, drill and rivet 10 rivets a day. Do this every day for a month, or until you start your kit. After you are done, each day, drill them all out using a punch to mark the rivet head, drill to the bottom of the countersink/dimple, and use the reversed end of a drill bit to snap the heads off, then punch out the remainder. Do this without enlarging the hole. If the hole becomes enlarged, (bad boy!) take a longer rivet, and setting it in your hand squeezer, slowly, and carefully squeeze it unsupported until you can grow it (fatten it) enough to fill the enlarged hole. Now use it as any other rivet. Squeeze it normally. Practice back-riveting with your rivet gun the same way, then go drill them out. Practice riveting normally with your rivet gun and use a bucking bar with your work clamped to the bench. Use masking tape over your flush rivet heads for unmarked surfaces. Use a little masking tape on your round head squeezer set for unmarked rivet heads. Do this stuff every day and you will get good!
You will be surprised at how many rivets you will want to drill out. When you are dealing with skeleton riveting, where sometimes three pieces of metal are being held together, it gets very interesting. I am always amazed at how many deformed, warped and twisted rivet shapes I can create. I should be nominated for "Original Metal Sculpture" shaped from rivets!
You can squeeze about 50% of the rivets in the empennage. When you have a choice, squeeze the rivets rather than buck them. Always support your work by clamping it securely to the bench and the pieces together to help you hold the pieces snugly together while riveting.
OK, that could be more than three things but... what the heck! We teach what we need to learn.
Cheers, Pete
Peter Marshall
Newbie RV-8 builder.
You wanna draw, ....against the fastest rivet gun in the West??? LOL
Newbie RV-8 builder.
You wanna draw, ....against the fastest rivet gun in the West??? LOL
In the beginning...
Thanks for the info guys . My dad worked in the sheet metal dept. for general electric.(pods for mini and vulcan guns) I picked a little from him,( by osmosis) and two of my closest friends are A&p's with I.A.'s. I'm trying to talk one of them into becoming a DAR.
Cap't J: You have a fellow in your neck of the woods who built a beauty of a 6. He has had a series of surgeries due to repetitive motion. He said to me" 500 bucks for a pneu squeezer or 20K for the doctor. You decide." I chose the pneu squeezer. The man never fails. Do you know who I mean?
I have been in the building trades for thirty years and every once in a while, I'll see a young person with a different take on the job assigned to them and say: Why didn't I think of that!!
Mustang: Thanks for the advice. I have been doing just as you've said when I can find the time. Real gooood advice.
TShort: Mom always said to measure three times,cut twice, and reorder. Mom IS NOT a good carpenter!
Thanks guys and if you have any more bits of wisdom I sure would like to here from you.
Cap't J: You have a fellow in your neck of the woods who built a beauty of a 6. He has had a series of surgeries due to repetitive motion. He said to me" 500 bucks for a pneu squeezer or 20K for the doctor. You decide." I chose the pneu squeezer. The man never fails. Do you know who I mean?
I have been in the building trades for thirty years and every once in a while, I'll see a young person with a different take on the job assigned to them and say: Why didn't I think of that!!
Mustang: Thanks for the advice. I have been doing just as you've said when I can find the time. Real gooood advice.
TShort: Mom always said to measure three times,cut twice, and reorder. Mom IS NOT a good carpenter!
Thanks guys and if you have any more bits of wisdom I sure would like to here from you.
- captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
Re: In the beginning...
I know a few dash sixers here. Are you talking about Ed, Jerry or Bill?wurger wrote: Cap't J: You have a fellow in your neck of the woods who built a beauty of a 6. He has had a series of surgeries due to repetitive motion. He said to me" 500 bucks for a pneu squeezer or 20K for the doctor. You decide." I chose the pneu squeezer. The man never fails. Do you know who I mean?
I haven't met Bill yet, but I plan on meeting him soon, as WS knows him well.
CJ
RV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
In the beginning...
Captain john,
The fellow I'm thinking of is from the Cape Cod area. His last name is Fail ( I don't think that is the correct spelling). He was joking around when he said even though his last name was Fail,He never did.
A nice RV-6 with a nice Garmin stack.
The fellow I'm thinking of is from the Cape Cod area. His last name is Fail ( I don't think that is the correct spelling). He was joking around when he said even though his last name was Fail,He never did.
A nice RV-6 with a nice Garmin stack.
- Wicked Stick
- Class B
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:00 pm
- Location: KEWB
Re: In the beginning...
Are you guys talking about David Faile ? I have some right stick time in his aircraft while formation demo'ing for him wing'n with Scott Jordan in his 8.wurger wrote:Captain john,
The fellow I'm thinking of is from the Cape Cod area. His last name is Fail ( I don't think that is the correct spelling). He was joking around when he said even though his last name was Fail,He never did.
A nice RV-6 with a nice Garmin stack.
However, I believe he now keeps his 6 in a t-hanger over at Bridgeport, CT.
Dave "WS" Rogers
RV-8 (125 hrs & counting)
N173DR
RV-8 (125 hrs & counting)
N173DR
In the beginning...
Yeah that's the guy. How did you like his bird
- Wicked Stick
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- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:00 pm
- Location: KEWB