Need an Engine for the -9A Project

A forum to discuss the installation and maintenance of the O-320, O-360, & O-540 engines and their variants.
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bruceh
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Need an Engine for the -9A Project

Post by bruceh »

The time has come to get serious about finally buying the engine for my RV-9A project. So many decisions and choices to make!

I would like a new engine (wife's preference too, but costly). Any downsides to freshly rebuilt engines with zero time?

I'm going to stick a fixed pitch prop on the front. Should I bother getting the hollow crank for potential CS prop later?

I want Fuel Injection. Leaning towards Airflow Performance, but Silver Hawk is also an option (I did not plumb the fuel system for a continuous return).

I have the vertical induction cowl with the snout (this is the RV-6 IO-360 optioned cowl from Van's with the additional width for the IO-320).

I'm not opposed to putting in an IO-360/340, but probably will stick with Van's max recommendation for the 320 (160hp). Any weight/balance issues on the -9A with the bigger engines?

All California auto gas contains ethanol, so that may be a consideration for compression ratios. I may not ever put mogas in the plane, but over the next 20 years we will probably see a move to UL gas for airplane engines. What is the best option here for compression ratios to get an honest 160 hp and be able to be flexible on fuel types?

I have the wiring in place for dual P-mags. Electronic ignition can use auto plugs. ECI cylinders have an option for the smaller 14mm threads. Any downside to using auto plugs with adapters?

I would really like to help assemble and build the engine. The build is an educational project and I want to learn as much as I can to help maintain the engine over its lifetime.

The ECI kit engine looks promising, but I need to find someone in the SoCal area willing to assemble this. Anyone have good information or experience with ECI vendors in getting them to build up what I want at a reasonable cost? What about warranties on the engine if it is assemble as a kit?

Thanks!
Bruce Hill
RV-9A N5771H flying over 1100 hours!
Build Log at http://www.overthehills.com/RV-9A-Project
Blog at https://flyingoverthehills.wordpress.com/
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bullojm1
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Re: Need an Engine for the -9A Project

Post by bullojm1 »

bruceh wrote: I would like a new engine (wife's preference too, but costly). Any downsides to freshly rebuilt engines with zero time?
Besides cost of course, a new engine must be run HARD for the first 10-15 hours to seat the rings. This means minimal taxing around. Get in it, start her up and FLY! A used engine that has been broken in is a little less intimidating to fly since the rings are already seated. Also, when the rings break in the engine runs hotter. One more thing to worry about with a new airplane.
bruceh wrote: I'm going to stick a fixed pitch prop on the front. Should I bother getting the hollow crank for potential CS prop later?
If you're buying new, you might as well get a hollow crank. Gives you options and increased possible resale value.
bruceh wrote: I want Fuel Injection. Leaning towards Airflow Performance, but Silver Hawk is also an option (I did not plumb the fuel system for a continuous return).
I have a Silver Hawk and it works just fine. Perhaps one could argue there are more Silver Hawk's out there than AFP's, so more likely to find parts if you get stranded.

bruceh wrote: I'm not opposed to putting in an IO-360/340, but probably will stick with Van's max recommendation for the 320 (160hp). Any weight/balance issues on the -9A with the bigger engines?
Talk to Bill Repucci (bill (at) repucci.com). He went from a O-290 to a IO-360 on his RV-9. From what I have read, he loves the 360!

bruceh wrote: All California auto gas contains ethanol, so that may be a consideration for compression ratios. I may not ever put mogas in the plane, but over the next 20 years we will probably see a move to UL gas for airplane engines. What is the best option here for compression ratios to get an honest 160 hp and be able to be flexible on fuel types?
The lower compression ratio (I think my IO-360 is 8.5:1) means you will be able to run more fuel types. The higher the ratio, the more expensive the fuel will be and the less life you will get out of your engine.
bruceh wrote: I have the wiring in place for dual P-mags. Electronic ignition can use auto plugs. ECI cylinders have an option for the smaller 14mm threads. Any downside to using auto plugs with adapters?
I use the auto plugs with the adapters. They work great. I wouldn't get the smaller 14mm threads because it limits you to never using a mag. And that's another thing - I know a lot of people are using dual PMAG's, but I am just scared that my alternator could send a huge electrical spike throughout all my electronic busses. Could it possibly take out both PMAGs? I like belt-and-suspender redundancy in engine critical systems, so I went with a EMAG and a Slick Mag.



Good luck with your engine selection! Don't forget to keep your eyes open for a deal on a new used engine at a deal!
Mike Bullock
http://www.rvplane.com
RV-7 | Superior IO-360 | Whirlwind 200RV
Garmin GTN650 | GRT Dual Sport SX EFIS
Status: FLYING!

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hydroguy2
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Post by hydroguy2 »

Back in 2008 or so I was determined to get a IO-390, but the price was going up faster than I could save for it. So I shopped all the big names for a new IO-360. Again the engine prices seemed to go everytime i turned on my computer. Oh and that new IO-375 from Aerosport was SWEET. Got my sharp pencil out and looked deep into my wallet, then tried to get the most HP possible.

I ended up with a Overhauled 360 and saved ~$4-7000(equally equipped) from the big names new engines. True some of the parts aren't brand new, but all meet certified specs. 9:1 pistons help make great power, doesn't leak, can run auto fuel if I want. I only run 100LL, since I run it hard and hot I want the extra detonation margin. Should make TBO just like a brand new one, too.

My Emag/Pmag combo works perfectly for 125hrs I've put on it. I run Auto plugs with adapters also, I changed them at my condition inspection. Plugs cost <$3 each, no reason to even think but cleaning them. also Never had a fouled plug yet.

I have an AFP injection and I like it, but seems like I need to adjust it again...easy enough to do.

I am very happy with my 0smoh rebuilt and the money savings paid for most of my panel.
Brian
Townsend, MT

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Post by Spike »

I was all set to go with ameritech industries for my engine when I was building the 9.

My only recommendation is that if you are going to go fix pitched / 160HP go with something other than the metal sensenich from Van's. I have a friend with this combo and have flown it several times. The darned RPM restriction on it leaves tons of power on the table. He is constantly RPM restricted in his performance.

Today, if you don't want constant speed, Id go with the ground adjustable sensenich composite. Its a nice piece of kit.

John
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captain_john
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Post by captain_john »

WOW that's ALOTTA questions all at once!

My ADHD is kicking in BIG TIME!!!

Look! A SQUIRREL!!!

:o CJ
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It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!

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bruceh
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Post by bruceh »

I have a neighbor who has stopped by the garage several times in the past couple of years while out walking to check on the RV-9A project. He owns an aircraft maintenance company at our local airport (KRNM). Last time he stopped by, we were just putting the wings on for the first time. He wanted to know if I had gotten an engine yet. He told me he had a couple of O-320's at his shop. I gave him my business card and since then have exchanged some emails and phone calls with him in the last month. Today I went over to his facility and took a look at what he has. He has 2 O-320 E2D engines taken off of Cessna 172's. One has no logs. The other one was taken off at 2085 hours and has logs. He offered me this deal; $4800 for the core engine. He would tear the engine down, send the parts off to various vendors to be checked, inspected, etc. He would get new ECI cermanil cylinders, pistons and all of the rest of the internal parts as needed to rebuild this to have 160hp. I would be responsible for getting the starter, alternator, fuel injection, fuel pump and ignition components. He would assemble the engine with my help for free and warranty the engine (not sure for how long). He is going to get me an estimate of the rebuild costs next week. It should be much cheaper than getting a new experimental engine (currently looking at somewere in the neighborhood of $25K-$28K).

Is $4800 for the core a good price? He will guarantee the crank, cams, rods and case will be rebuildable.
How much should it be to get this engine rebuilt with a fresh top end?
Any other gotcha's I should consider?

The nice benefit of going this route would be getting some experience in the engine build. Having a local contact for future maintenance needs and warranty work. Also talked to several others at the field and all had good things to say about his reputation as an engine builder. Also might save some serious $$$.
Bruce Hill
RV-9A N5771H flying over 1100 hours!
Build Log at http://www.overthehills.com/RV-9A-Project
Blog at https://flyingoverthehills.wordpress.com/
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hydroguy2
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Post by hydroguy2 »

$4800 is probably fair for a known engine and guarantee parts. Should be able to get ti all back together for $12-15k, maybe less. Also make sure you have the correct accessory case.(might be an issue with the fuel pump)

Also get in writing what is being supplied and cost involved. Friends, locals and business can murk the water. Best to keep everything on paper, for both of you.

I'm happy with my Overhauled 360.
Brian
Townsend, MT

Spike
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Post by Spike »

And for a reference point the E2D is a really solid engine. They were OEM for tons of skyhawks before the H2AD came out with all of the cam issues.

Spike
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painless
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Post by painless »

FWIW, I fly behind an E2D in my 6A. Some would scoff that it is a 150 hp version, but at 1500hrs and at a cost of $7800.00, I'm having a ball. Came out of a 1968 Cardinal for a power increase. I replaced the mags with new slicks, B&C alternator and starter. Plugs were changed out with fine wires. Compressions are all 76/80 or higher, consumes 1qt of oil every 6-7 hrs, oil pressure at cruise at 71psi.

E2D's have been referred to as bullet proof. I'm a very happy camper with mine.
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
Hatz Classic, Welding fuselage
Hatz build log. https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blproject&p ... GNCwv&sid=
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bruceh
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Progress pictures

Post by bruceh »

We tore down the engine in session #1. Not much to report on this except that these engines are pretty simple to take apart. We had the whole thing dismantled in under 3 hours. Everything went out to get worked on and when it came back I got to mask it off for painting.

We put the rods on the crank and got the case halves together in session #2.

This past weekend we got the accessory case, sump and cylinders installed.

Image

More pictures on my website.

I'm excited to finally have the engine coming together!
Bruce Hill
RV-9A N5771H flying over 1100 hours!
Build Log at http://www.overthehills.com/RV-9A-Project
Blog at https://flyingoverthehills.wordpress.com/
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Bob Barrett
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Post by Bob Barrett »

Bruce good to see you making such good progress on your engine and airplane! It is interesting that you painted the engine before assembling it makes a sharp looking engine. I had my airplane painted before the final assembly. My fuselage, including cowl, vertical stabilizer, & rudder were red. Wings and horizontal Stabilizer and elevators were white. We assembled the airplane without painting Wing tips, gear leg fairings, and wheel pants. We flew it the first year and then had the wing tips etc all painted red. Came out great I had a white vinyl stripe down each side with the N 784TB cut out. When the wheel pants were painted I put similar white vinyl stripes on the outside of each pant. That way touch up of wheel pants can be done easily.

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bruceh
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It runs!

Post by bruceh »

Revisiting this thread after all of the final assembly work is done. Did the fuel flow checks, flushed out the lines, primed the pump, pre-oiled the engine and got all of the systems ready to go.

I started the engine up! It ran great on the first 3 minute run, then we let it cool down and did a second run after checking for leaks. No leaks!

Image

There is a video my wife took of the first start over on Facebook.
Bruce Hill
RV-9A N5771H flying over 1100 hours!
Build Log at http://www.overthehills.com/RV-9A-Project
Blog at https://flyingoverthehills.wordpress.com/
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captain_john
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Post by captain_john »

Bruce, very nice!

I see that your forward skin is still not nailed on.

I was wondering when I should do mine and thinking that it should be done before I get to the airport.

Not so necessary, I see!

Hmmmm, nail it on before we fly though! hahaha

Again, great job in getting to yet another huge milestone!

:) CJ
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It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!

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bruceh
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Post by bruceh »

I'm glad I left it off. I have had a couple of electrical signals that had to be moved (I wired up the trim hat buttons backward!) and some continuity checks performed for other discrepancies. Having the skin off until you run the engine is wise, especially if you have to get under there to fix anything. My VP-X box is coming out for repair, so until all of that gets resolved, the skin is staying off.
Bruce Hill
RV-9A N5771H flying over 1100 hours!
Build Log at http://www.overthehills.com/RV-9A-Project
Blog at https://flyingoverthehills.wordpress.com/
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Post by captain_john »

Repair???

Like ummmm for what?

What is it doing (or not doing)?

:? CJ
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It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!

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Post by Vlad »

No leaks? Run again you have to have some :)

Congrats! That's a good news...
RV-9A N666BK flying 4,500+ hours since 2011

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bruceh
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Post by bruceh »

Engine better not have leaks! It's freshly rebuilt. I'm sure it will take me much longer to get to 1000 hours than Vlad.

The problem with the VP-X is no +2.5V on the position sensor lines, so all of my servo positions read zero. Hoping that Chad can get me fixed up before the DAR shows up for inspection.
Bruce Hill
RV-9A N5771H flying over 1100 hours!
Build Log at http://www.overthehills.com/RV-9A-Project
Blog at https://flyingoverthehills.wordpress.com/
EAA Tech Counselor, A&P

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captain_john
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Post by captain_john »

I bet he will.

If not, I will loan you mine!

:) CJ
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It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

We will get it turned around as quick as we can. Should be an easy fix. 8)
Chad Jensen
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