No Osh BBQ

RVNewsletter · Post by **RVNewsletter** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:03 am

I've decided not to subsidize or organize the RV BBQ at Oshkosh this year.

Details here and here.

that is all.

Post by **Spike** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:50 am

Thanx for the heads up Bob. Once again you have so very eloquently expressed many of the things that I think, only so much better.

Spike

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:42 am

Bob, you've done so much, and are a true testament of the will to get things done!

I stand by your decision 100% bud!

Now, can I still count on you to mark the spot for me and Brad again this year?

BTW...I read your Blog, and find it soothing. I'm young, but in that nostalgic camp of old school builders who cherish the journey. Always a good read!

painless · Post by **painless** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:47 am

Bob, your organizing and running the OSH BBQ certainly deserves our respect and thanks. Like with any popular event, it grew to the point where it became a daunting task every year.

One thing that I would like to put out there as a replacement for a full blown BBQ is to have a sort of cocktail hour where there is no food served and everyone brings their own bottle/can. There must be some area of the campground that we could use. Possibly near/around the Red Barn. I am open for suggestions. Only thing we would need is a bunch of trash bags for the empties. Keeping it simple would prevent it from getting too much to handle.

Just a thought. I would hate to lose a chance for all of us to share our enthusiam for the breed.

Regards,

spikescopilot · Post by **spikescopilot** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:02 pm

Un-frickin-believable. After everything you've done for the community, I'd be upset too, Bob.

painless · Post by **painless** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:27 pm

I just had a chance to read Bob's post regarding the basis for his stepping away from the RV internet community.

I would like to quote one line of his:

"Internet communities eventually build rules and eventually, an aristocracy. Maybe I'm a socialist at heart, but I don't care for aristocracy."

I couldn't agree with you more Bob. I totally understand what you are saying and often feel the same way.

Reading your post sheds quite a bit more light on your decision. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Best Regards,

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:18 pm

painless wrote: I would like to quote one line of his:

"Internet communities eventually build rules and eventually, an aristocracy. Maybe I'm a socialist at heart, but I don't care for aristocracy."

I couldn't agree with you more Bob.

And THAT's why I am on this board and not the other one. Can't stand the cult of RVdom that has built up there. Can't say I'll miss that.

weezbad · Post by **weezbad** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:57 pm

I really like being a part of these groups but there is a structure in some that does not lend itself to criticism at all. Because the "elite"

think they are too good to be observed with anything less than praise.

and to that i say .....well i better not say it here.

Bob Barrett · Post by **Bob Barrett** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:58 pm

Bob,

You are my kind of builder. You are paying for it as you go and it is not fancy. My instrument panel has some used steam guages but a second hand Grand Rapids from Wentworth, and our three kids and spouses chipped in and purchased a Dynon 10D for my 70th birthday. Yes I am slow and although it is I have a quickbuild it has become a slow building project. I hope to see you at the next MN Wing meeting at Dick Nordquist's. I am sure you are both a good pilot and builder! I know you are an excellant writer. I really enjoyed your RV newsletter.

chappyd · Post by **chappyd** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:37 pm

That really is too bad. I am planning to go to Osh this year for the first time ever, dragging my family in tow. I was really hoping to do the BBQ. I guess I overlooked the post on the "other" board, thinking it was the original post about hosting the BBQ.

Bob, I always enjoyed your posts and really looked forward to finding your newsletter in my mailbox on Saturday mornings. I really have no use for Kitplanes magazine. I used to like it, long ago. I had just resubscribed prior to visiting Sun & Fun last year. When my son and I were in the vendor hangers, we started collecting the usual literature. When we came to the kitplanes table, there was a couple stacks of the latest issue. My son went to grab one and was told VERY rudely not to take one, those are for the last day of the show. Meanlike. I will never subscribe to their magazine again, and all the issues have found their way into the garbage.

I don't really know why Dan felt he needed to illustrate individual examples to make his point. I think it could have been done otherwise. When I had my Mooney, my buddy and I used to talk about the high cost of fuel, and then laugh about it, because in reality, it was the cheapest thing about certified flying.

RVNewsletter · Post by **RVNewsletter** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:58 pm

Well, of course, the problem is *I* don't represent the kind of builder that Dan felt like embarassing. In fact, DAN fits more of the kind of builder than his misguided attempt to distort my messages (which were posted on the Yahoogroup). That's the crux of my objection to his article. It's not his opinion that bothers me; it's the sloppiness and inaccuracy with which he formed his argument, ignoring the facts that would've made his examples of no use at all to his soapbox.

But I just think if Internet bulletin boards are going to succeeed, a guy who needs to sell an article shouldn't be picking them off, changing their meaning, and then using themin an article. I think there's a very basic level of decency and respect that simply has to come with one's participation on a board. And the most simple level of decency in these situations is for a writer to notify someone he's quoting (whether anonymously or not is irrelevant) to be sure of the facts and the context.

On the Yahoogroup, another guy said he was putting me in his kill file because I was going to P*ss Dan off and he gets a lot of good information from Dan.

So there's your basic RV situational ethics.

Re: Kitplanes. I saw that guy at Oshkosh do pretty much the same thing. The problem is THAT booth isn't really a Kitplanes booth. It's a guy who resells subscriptions. If you buy from him, the first thing you'll get is, like, 3 back issues, which kinda stinks. I complained about it to Kitplanes and Marc Cook made clear that he's not a Kitplanes representative.

But, you're right. That guy is a total, classless jerk.

Marc Cook, by the way, offered me column space to rebutt Dan's comments, but I told him I wasn't interested because the issue really isn't Dan vs. Bob. The issue is the segmentation of homebuilders builders and the loss of the respect for an individual's project and method that is the very spirit of homebuilding.

Dan had built one Web site and one airplane. His information is valuable. But the sort of hubris of one experimental homebuilder dictating a standard for other experimental homebuilders is a good example of what's wrong with homebuilding today.

As for the BBQ. I want to hang out with my friends and in the last year or so it's been too difficult to be sure that's all I'm hanging out with. Dan and his folks ate my food and drank my beer and you don't treat people with the lack of respect he's shown and then drink their beer.

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:54 pm

Well said. I don't really know Dan and have nothing against him. But I do agree that for a guy that has built one airplane, well, his britches are awful big. I think he, like some others have, is trying to build a career around the RV series of aircraft.

Bob, you delivered newspapers to buy your tail kit. I wonder what he's funding with WeatherMeister? And what is the difference between what you did and what he's doing?

cnpeters · Post by **cnpeters** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:27 am

Bob,
I'm sorry you have hit this low point with the community. As a relative newcomer, I have gleaned much from your posts and musings. I've also enjoyed your level commentary. I really do hope you plan not to sign off from the forums - despite the few bad apples there are so many of us that appreciate your writings. I gain far more from folks like you than other sources like the fluff in Kitplanes (actually just dropped the subscription - had enough of mediocre content, pandering to advertisers, aggressive and dishonest renewal practices, and lack of response to my emails). I missed the BBQ last year but hope to clink a cold one with you one day!
Carl

smithhb · Post by **smithhb** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:37 am

RVNewsletter wrote:Marc Cook, by the way, offered me column space to rebutt Dan's comments, but I told him I wasn't interested because the issue really isn't Dan vs. Bob.

Bob, I kinda disagree. YOU represent what I believe to be the "typical" RV/OBAM aircraft builder... NOT Dan.

I read the Kitplanes article and, like many others, wondered what Dan's point was. I think Dan had a major slip in judgment when he chose to blast you for your decision without knowing anything about you or talking with you personally first. As you know, this is a major fauxpax in journalism.

Please re-consider Marc's offer. We need your voice.

RVNewsletter · Post by **RVNewsletter** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:52 am

svanarts wrote:Bob, you delivered newspapers to buy your tail kit. I wonder what he's funding with WeatherMeister? And what is the difference between what you did and what he's doing?

I hate to say it, but I actually enjoyed it. I LOVE the pre-dawn, generally speaking. I did it for 10 years. The only problem is you have to do it 7 days a week. I'd get up around 2:30 a.m., finish around 5... read the paper and have breakfast, go back to bed around 5:30, get up at 9 and go to the real job...work 'til 7...go home... dinner... bed by 9.

Given that gas is about $3 a gallon now, though, I owuldn't want to do it again.

tip your carrier!

RVNewsletter · Post by **RVNewsletter** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:54 am

I'll still be at Osh, and I'll still be camping in the same spot and I'll still have extra beer/drink and burgers. I'll just be cooking to order for "average folks."

weezbad · Post by **weezbad** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:55 am

smithhb wrote:
RVNewsletter wrote:Marc Cook, by the way, offered me column space to rebutt Dan's comments, but I told him I wasn't interested because the issue really isn't Dan vs. Bob.
Bob, I kinda disagree. YOU represent what I believe to be the "typical" RV/OBAM aircraft builder... NOT Dan.

I read the Kitplanes article and, like many others, wondered what Dan's point was. I think Dan had a major slip in judgment when he chose to blast you for your decision without knowing anything about you or talking with you personally first. As you know, this is a major fauxpax in journalism.

Please re-consider Marc's offer. We need your voice.

very true.

Brantel · Post by **Brantel** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:01 am

Bob, although I have never met you, I can tell by your postings that you are my kind of people. I never got to attend your BBQ but was looking forward to it this year.

Dan's ability to create a nice website documenting his adventure was what gave him all this visibility. But he was not the first, I remember tons of others out there that were doing this type of site back then, Mike Stewart, Sam Buchanan, and a few others I don't remember were a few of them. Neither of which have ever come accross to me the same as I have seen with Dan.

When I first started my plane, Dan had not started his rise to fame. It has always been strange to me that he has been elevated into the position of RV builder God. I mean heck, he has only built one plane and when he started, he was as green as anyone. Made the same newbie mistakes that everyone does. So how does making it thru one airplane all of a sudden make you the final word on homebuilding?????

I admit that I reference Dan's site all the time to verify things, but I also visit at least 20 others regularly as well. Even some that are not flying yet. To me it is not one man's experience that I value, its the collective experience of many that is the most valuable.

I know several people who have built multiple homebuilt airplanes and most of them are very humble people willing to give info out at will and never developing the attitude that I have seen Dan possess. Dan will tell you that he is not in this to make friends or to be sociable. What kind of attitude is that for someone that is suppose to be at the top of the RV community?

One thing that I do agree with Dan on is that small single engine general aviation is dying and we need to do what we can to shore it up before it becomes only a hobby for the rich and famous. I don't think that glass panels is the reason this is happening, it goes much deeper than that! Some versions of glass panels cost less than their steam gauge ancestors!

There are the loyal Checkoway followers that will argue that Dan has done more for the RV community than anyone alive. I admitt that he has done allot and can continue to be a great asset but I wonder how much damage he has done as well for those that cannot look past his attitude?

All this being said, I am a person that can get allong with just about anybody. I have never met Dan in person and would be willing to share a cold ice tea with him just like anyone else. I would just hope and pray for him to lighten up on the attitude, make some new friends and repair some broken relationships and continue to constructively help the RV community where he can.

RVNewsletter · Post by **RVNewsletter** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:51 am

Occasionally, out in the RV corral at Oshkosh, I stumble across RVs with stories posted. One of my favorites was a guy who took 16 years to build. Another was a paraplegic, who took a dozen.

One of my favorite builders is Doug Weiler, Northwest Airlines (for now) captain who took at least a dozen years to build his RV-4. He was busy with family and, oh yeah, running the Minnesota Wing of Van's Air Force, and helping others. Never, not once, have I heard Doug judge another builder.

Those planes are few and far between now at Oshkosh. Dan's goal for everyone is that they should -- must, actually -- approach building the same way he did -- get it done quick and start flying.

and, as I've said before, that's great if that fits the particular person involved. But the roots of homebuilding are in the folks who built their planes and stayed grounded in life.

Anybody can write a check and walk away with an airplane. Anybody, especially in the age of prepunched kits, can write a check and build an airplane. Not everyone can build an airplane and stay rooted in their lives. The number of kits for sale and the number of ex-spouses tells us that.

But Dan, who to be fair doesn't know any better, thinks the reason there are so many projects for sale is because people didn't build fast enough or didn't write their checks fast enough, or didn't leave their families soon enough. And that's not it. It's because not everybody can build an airplane and make the process fit in with the lives they want. It's a talent all its own and it's about time the "kids" begin to understand and appreciate that.

Oh, and I have met Dan, but only for a brief moment and it was a pleasure to do so. He's been very helpful, of course, and I'd welcome another opportunity. Last year he gave his BBQ tickets to Paul Rosales.

He says he's not in this to make friends or be sociable. I can't imagine any other purpose for an airplane, though.

smithhb · Post by **smithhb** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:14 am

Excellent insight, Bob. My greatest inspiration are the many stories of builders who started their RV projects many years before but either died or were otherwise unable to complete the projects. Then a son or daughter picks up the tools, dusts off the aluminum, and finishes the plane. Talk about a great story.