ACM in the RV world.

[John Courte]

This may sound like a silly idea, and I apologize in advance if so. I"ve looked on a couple of different forums and I can't find an answer, so I'll ask it here:

How does everyone feel about simulated air combat? Seems to me you could have a whole lot of fun with some smoke and lasers, like the fighter guys charging $200/pop for an hour in a Varga or a Yak, going head to head with a buddy in another plane.

What would be the showstopper? Airspace? Safety? A kid in a 152 puttering through the combat zone? Performance limits of the RV?

Personally, I think it would be a hoot, as long as there were standards and practices for safe operations.

[prestwich]

Sounds like a blast to me. I took my maiden RV test flight with a retired Navy Admiral. That guy really knew how to handle an airplane. Just doing some "strafing runs" on the cars on the highway, followed by evasive maneuvering to avoid the return fire, got me jazzed up. Aerial paint ball? I'm down.

[svanarts]

Smoke yes, but if the laser is visible light I'd have to go on the no/too dangerous list. Maybe something could be done with something in the infrared spectrum. I just hate it when I go blind during ACM.

Really easy to over speed an RV too. A more draggy airplane might be more suitable.

[Wicked Stick]

I've done the Air Combat USA dogfight with a friend. www.aircombatusa.com
We got to fly some formation out to the combat zone, do 6 dogfights and rtb in formation when done. We pulled about 5.5 G's on a couple of maneuvers in the Sia Marchetti's (spelling?). It was a blast and I was sore for the next couple of days. I managed to get 4 kills , got shot down once , and the last was a draw as we were going bingo fuel.)

To do this in an RV could be done, but it would be more difficult as you definitely have to watch out for overspeed/overstress. The RV's build up speed much more rapidly than other aircraft. I'm sure others out there have duked it out with their RV buddies at one time or another.

The Air Combat Guys also reserve some airspace when they do it.
They also have engagement rules for hard decks, etc.

I've done a little dogfighting in a Grumman I owned and fly some aerobatics in the RV-4 I currently co-own. I guess I'd be up for it in my 8 when it's done, but it would have to be throughouly briefed on the ground and done with someone I trust.

I wonder how an RV-7 would do against an RV-8 ? hmmm.. Up for it CJ ?

[captain_john]

WS, sounds like you threw down the gauntlet!

No doubt!

I dare say the whole thing would be pilot against pilot anyways...

There just wouldn't be that much difference in our setups to make a noticable performance advantage.

That means you would win!

I would still give it a try though!

CJ

[JohnR]

Dave, that sounds like fun! Did the Marchetti's look like this?



I know it is a horrible photo but that is me in the left seat. I was in CA visiting my nephew who at the time was working at the Santa Monica airport and we ran to Catalina for lunch. That was our ride. Nice airplane. To bad we didn't have a chance to take it out and ring it out a little. The airspace we were in was a little restrictive. Did manage to get a couple of rolls in though.

I can see where this could be fun and addictive.

[John Courte]

Definitely not visible lasers. The whole blindness thing puts a damper on a good day's flying. I was thinking something like a low-rent version of the MILES system or similar. It would have to be something that is triggered by the IR hit. A simpler way would be a little CCD aimed coaxial to the laser. It could definitely register hits, but there would be no way to trip smoke on the target ship without a comms solution. That's where it gets too complicated to work.

[N200PF]

I don't know guys... Playing laser tag with each other in the air with the RV's?!? Can we not find enough enjoyment in the RV's as they fly today???

I must admit, it sounds fun! BUT -> We're all competitive...and if you're like me, it gets WORSE as the games go on...especially if I'm loosing! From bowling with the guys on Wednesdays to Air to Air laser tag, it's all the same. My biggest concern is getting caught up in the spirit of the game and looking away from the airspeed indicator just long enough to fly through that 200 knot wall with the power on pointed down.

Maybe it's just me but performing ACM, managing the plane and BEATING CJ all at the same time is something I would need a WHOLE LOT OF TRAINING in before I would consider doing it solo.

- Peter

[captain_john]

Awwww shucks...

I wish I was HALF the pilot you seem to think I am!

CJ

[JohnR]

Peter,

I tend to agree, at least for me. I would have trouble not doing something stupid if I participated. I'm sure there are those who wouldn't have any problems but once the competitive side gets fired up I have a tendency to stretch the boundaries which is not good. That is why I quit racing motorcycles!

I think I'll just use the RV to go places.

[N200PF]

...and maybe go places upside down on occasion! (with parachute hooked in of course!)

- Peter

[svanarts]

We have a game we play out here in the wilds of California's huge Central Valley. You both tune to 122.75 and fly two different directions and plan to meet up about 30 miles away or so. Then more or less you just sneak up on your buddy. Try to get behind him without him seeing you at the rendevouz point. When you do just start rapidly keying your mic. Your buddy hears the fake gunfire over the radio and knows he's been shot down.

Kinda whimpy but we have fun.

My favorite radio conversation:

"Hey Scott, where you at?"

"Right behind you"

Buddy cranks and banks flies high and low. Pulls into a high G turn.

"Hey Scott, where you at?"

"Right behind you"

You gotta love these planes.

[Andy G]

Let me just through my 2 cents in here. THIS IS ABSOLUTLY UNSAFE W/O PROPER TRAINING......PERIOD.

I have a friend that flys B-52s and one that's a T-38 instructor out at Shepherd AFB. It takes YEARS of extensive training to do this sort of thing w/ some degree of safety, and we still end up w/ mid-airs, (I've personally seen it in the Hornet community).

And, while I'm ranting, I see too many RV pilots who think they are magically formation qualified, NOT SO. We, as a community need to step back and start thinking about safety before someone (FAA) decides to do it for us.

Nothing wrong w/ formation, and/or aerial combat maneuvering....IF YOU ARE TRAINED.

We are all building/flying very capable aircraft. This carries w/ it a lot of responsibility. It's easy to try and push the limits when nobody's watching.

Lets keep GA safe, and we can all share a beer and tell stories at hangar parties vs. sending cards and flowers to someone’s wife and kids.

-A

[captain_john]

That's right, Android!

I DO plan on getting trained in all the weird stuff before trying it on my own. There is a guy here in PYM that does upset training and all that loopy, rolly stuff in a ZLIN and something else...

I am gonna get some specifics from him when the RV nears completion.

CJ

[RV7Factory]

This would be awesome, but it is too dangerous for my blood.

The reason the ACM guys do this so well is that there are two people in the plane. You fly while the instructor makes sure you don't do anything stupid (i.e. rip the wings off, inverted spin, etc.). The problem is that when alone, you can fixate on getting into position for a good shot, and lose sight of the fact that you are bleeding off airspeed and in some strange attitude.

[N200PF]

Scott I hope you guys each specify your own altitude so you don't literally meet up at the rendevouz!

I get nervous enough just trying to coordinate a flight of two for breakfast on Saturday mornings after departure. It's spooky when you're talking on the radio about being over the same landmark but can't see each other! I can't imagine trying to get a visual BEFORE making radio contact...

You are certainly more trained than I!

- Peter

[Wicked Stick]

Dave, that sounds like fun! Did the Marchetti's look like this?



I know it is a horrible photo but that is me in the left seat. I was in CA visiting my nephew who at the time was working at the Santa Monica airport and we ran to Catalina for lunch. That was our ride. Nice airplane. To bad we didn't have a chance to take it out and ring it out a little. The airspace we were in was a little restrictive. Did manage to get a couple of rolls in though.

I can see where this could be fun and addictive.

John, Yes in deedee that's the bird.. Kinda clunky on the ground, but flew nice. Didn't need hardly any rudder what so ever, but I guess that's why they say it makes a good jet trainer as they don't need much rudder either. It DID give good stall warning feedback though with a good stick shake.

[Wicked Stick]

Let me just through my 2 cents in here. THIS IS ABSOLUTLY UNSAFE W/O PROPER TRAINING......PERIOD.

I have a friend that flys B-52s and one that's a T-38 instructor out at Shepherd AFB. It takes YEARS of extensive training to do this sort of thing w/ some degree of safety, and we still end up w/ mid-airs, (I've personally seen it in the Hornet community).

And, while I'm ranting, I see too many RV pilots who think they are magically formation qualified, NOT SO. We, as a community need to step back and start thinking about safety before someone (FAA) decides to do it for us.

Nothing wrong w/ formation, and/or aerial combat maneuvering....IF YOU ARE TRAINED.

We are all building/flying very capable aircraft. This carries w/ it a lot of responsibility. It's easy to try and push the limits when nobody's watching.

Lets keep GA safe, and we can all share a beer and tell stories at hangar parties vs. sending cards and flowers to someone’s wife and kids.

-A

Andy,

I happened to be trained in formation flying and hold an FFI Wingman card.
I have also gotten "some" aerbatic training.

I understand your concern for safety and not wanting the FAA to step in and ban something due to a bad accident.

But I think if two guys and there planes want to have a little fun up there, and they have experience and plan the whole thing on the ground to minimize the risks... then I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[Wicked Stick]

Scott I hope you guys each specify your own altitude so you don't literally meet up at the rendevouz!

I get nervous enough just trying to coordinate a flight of two for breakfast on Saturday mornings after departure. It's spooky when you're talking on the radio about being over the same landmark but can't see each other! I can't imagine trying to get a visual BEFORE making radio contact...

You are certainly more trained than I!

- Peter

Peter,

That's a good point... Usually when I am rendevou'ing with another formation pilot, we use about 300 to 500 feet of different altitude for seperation. Only when we see the other will we set up the rejoin.

When dogfighting in AirCombatUSA, we had to have a visual on each other before doing the head to head pass and calling the fight on.

Like anything else that has it's dangers, you have to think and plan and choreograph everyone on the same page before doing it.

[Andy G]

[/quote]

Andy,

I happened to be trained in formation flying and hold an FFI Wingman card.
I have also gotten "some" aerbatic training.

I understand your concern for safety and not wanting the FAA to step in and ban something due to a bad accident.

But I think if two guys and there planes want to have a little fun up there, and they have experience and plan the whole thing on the ground to minimize the risks... then I don't think there's anything wrong with that.[/quote]

Dave,

I agree w/ you. Nothing wrong w/ having a little fun up there...w/ the proper training. I plan on receiving training on formation/aerobatic flight prior to attempting it. I happen to love watching both. It seems as though you have taken the steps necessary to do it safely.

I have personally been a paasenger in an RV while flying formation w/ a 182. Neither pilot had been formally trainined on how to properly fly formation. It was an uncomfortable situation, and dangerous.

Don't get me worng, I don't want to sound like a stick in the mud, I party about as hard as anyone I know. I love to have a good time. On the other side of that coin, I take flight safety very seriously, and if I smell a dangerous situation, I'm gonna call it out every time w/o question.

With the proper training and experience, we can all have a blast.

Tailwinds,

-A