Nosedraggers... what are you thinking?

[RV6junkie]

I’m glad I built a tail dragger –6 for all of the usual reasons. I'm very happy with my –6, especially how well it handles during take-off and landing. To be honest, knowing that the –6 is about the best landing aircraft I’ve flown, I’ve never dreaded a landing.

With all of that said…if I were to build another RV today…I’d build a –6A. I can hear all of you collectively asking “Why?” It’s because I’m not at all happy with the visibility over the nose during taxi. And if you think that I must be some type of short person, I’m not. I’m 6’1” and my head is about an inch from the canopy when I sit in the aircraft.

[l & d lewis]

GO ARFFGUY!!! Anybody who thinks what you fly makes you a pilot is out to lunch. What matters is how well you fly and how well you promote aviation to others. Understand that each demands a different level of attention, and that the level varies constantly with changing conditions. Loss of situational awareness in any airplane will get you hurt. I can tell you from professional experience that ground loops, nose-downs, and nose overs occurr more frequently than people knocking nose wheels off. I can also tell you that except for the most hardcore off airport rocky hillside landings, Cessna 150/172/182's do very well on unimproved strips, sandbars, and riverbanks. Real pilots are those who make a commitment to know and understand their, and their airplane's abilities and limitations, and fly accordingly (safely). The best stick flying the best plane isn't much of a pilot if he/she acts and flys like a jerk. I chose the 8 because of way it flys, I chose the A because of its ground handling (no surprises). I've flown both, and I choose to make my life easier......Larry[/i]

[728GD]

Cpt. John !!

You rock Dude! (sorry, I watched Finding Nemo with my son last night) You really know how to get this place rocking. I thought you should have won an award for your "where ya from" thread, but now you follow up this this. Great thought provoking comments.

What do you like, then build it. Simple as that.

I have a 6. I love the looks. I love how it handles, in the air and on the ground. The only reason I would change to a nose, on MY RV, is if my wife started to fly. There is no question the A is easier to control on the ground, in the air they are airplanes. A tail wheel is not hard to control on the ground, just different.

I like tailwheels, but I can fly both, and I will if need be..

Again, great thread Capt. keep it up

Dale

[captain_john]

Thanks for all the input, All... it has been quite lively!

Found some more fuel from Jim Pappas, who is an aircraft insurance agent.

I asked him the differnce, dollarwise with all things being equal.

I used myself as a baseline. I have a tad over 300 hours and the magic number for taildragger time for a decent rate is 50 hours, which I will have (easily) by the time the plane is ready.

Jim says I am looking at 10-25% more for taildragger costs in annual premiums. So, if the premium is $1,200 for a nosedragger, plan on as much as $1,500 for a taildragger.

Honestly, this cost will be balanced out by the lower cost to manufacture the TD.

As you accrue time in the TD, premuims become more in line with the nosedragger. I say that it is safe to say that you can build what you want without cost being a factor at all.

If you ever plan on selling your plane, the nosedragger gets the nod. I, for one don't.

Thanks for all the thoughts, both kind and hostile!

CJ

[Spike]

Should be no hostility here! Frankly, I totalyl encourage and support discussions as these as long as they stay civil. It seems that rivetbangers is very much attracting the younger/new to RV crowd. The more information that we have (such as is discussed here) the more helpful & beneficial we are.

Keep up the good work guys. You all deserve a

-- John

[captain_john]

I want TWO!



...and some popcorn!

CJ

[arffguy]

I just realized that that was my 50th post. Hell of post, I think. So much so I have been thinking about it for most of the last 24 hours. I have decided that I am not going to participate in this issue anymore even inside my local groups. Heck on DR's site (ya know-that other one) he rightfully calls it "The Never Ending Argument." And to Aerial, it was not my intention to offend you. If I did I am sorry. I hope we can all meet at Oshkosh someday and have a beer and laugh about it. And yes, when I can get to it, damn right that I will find a tailwheel airplane, just to try it before I lose my medical. Good thread CJ. Let's keep the dialogue going. I promise I won't rant (too often. )

[aerial]

I haven't taken offense at anything.......err...the only flack I am getting is for spending too much time on the computer looking at plane stuff

I'm not too sensitive The way I look at it whatever prop's your motor. It's nice to have the choice and the freedom to choose. Wouldn't it be terrible if they banned tail-draggers because they were too dangerous? Or the insurance companies colaborated to make it financially unbearable? When I was young we rode 3 wheelers and had diving boards in our swimming pools. Call me rebellious.

Here's another perspective:

http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleT ... ining.html

[captain_john]

Arffguy, please feel free to contribute further to this thread. Please, you are the most outspoken trike guy yet!

It truly is the never ending argument, except I don't see it as an argument. It is just another group of airplanes that require additional training...unless you get your ticket in a Cub.

Aerial, I feel the same way. Tell me that I can't do or have something and I want even MORE!

You can't fly THAT plane. It steers from behind! Show me the logbooks and I will show you I can fly it!

That is the reason with slightly over 300 hours, I have a Single Engine Land and Single Engine Sea tickets with Complex, High Performance and tailwheel signoffs. The instrument ticket I plan on getting in the RV on a Dynon EFIS. After that, I am going Commercial and CFI. Not a bad schedule, I think... for Part 61.

That article by Budd Davisson sums it up quite nicely! I certainly couldn't have said it better myself!

If you have a chance, take some tailwheel instruction. You don't have to fly one daily. After all, it's just like a flying forklift (if you have ever driven one of those)!

CJ

[hngrflyr]

I've been flying for a lot of years. During my flying activities before I owned my own airplanes, I flew nosewheel airplanes over a period of years because that's what was available to me. I always thought I was doing a pretty good job flying. Then I got back into a tailwheel airplane and was shocked at how much my skills had degraded. You can be sloppy in nosewheel airplanes and still look OK. If you're sloppy in taildraggers everyone knows it. Flying tailwheel airplanes keeps my stick and rudder skills sharper than they would otherwise be. It's just in my nature to keep trying to improve my knowledge and skills. That why as along as I am flying, it will be in tailwheel airplanes. I can put up with the visibility over the nose issue, because the trade offs for me fall on the side of tailwheel airplanes.
How's that for spilling your guts?

[Oldsfolks]

Hang in there Capt. John;
I'm on your side !! 760 hrs. logged ( And first test flights on half a dozen other Rv-4's) with no problems in directional control. LOVE my first and second RV-4's .

[captain_john]

Hi Bob!

Thanks for chiming in and good to see your voice!

Glad to have you here!

CJ

[Guest]

Hi guys,

I'm the one CJ talked to about the difference between nose and tail from the insurance standpoint.

The difference is a range from 15-25% between the two if all other things are the same, TT, time in type. These are really ballparks for theory use only.

To give an idea I just quoted a pilot with an A model and his cost came in around $1900 with one company but would have been that much higher had it been a taildragger. I am still shopping it for him to see if we can do better but the percentage should still be pretty close for this excercise.

Using that as a benchmark, as his is a pretty typical amount of TT etc, I think the percentage is a fairer way to guess the cost difference in your decision process.

This is the same as a flight plan, plan your flight based on current information then be prepared for deviations. In this case the basic costs have increased a lot in the last year or two as we all know but those percentages have remained fairly constant.

If you are deciding between both and an extra $400 a year would prevent you from building a taildragger thats your call to make, you are PIC even in the build process.

In keeping with the planning theme I can tell you that recently a client came to me wanting to insure a glass plane that is way more slick than what he currently has time in.

At first the Insurance Company was very nervous until we laid out his "plan". He has just started the build and even with QB and builders assist he is planning on about a 2 year build. During that time he plans on continuing flying. The underwriter suggested that in addition to a great building plan he had in place and plans for first flight and such that he begin to build time in comparable type aircraft DURING the build as much as possible so that by the time he has first flight he will be insurable and his rates will be much lower.

That to me seems to be the best idea I have heard in years. Plan your build from the insurance standpoint as well as the build itself. If more of us come into first flight with a broader base of pilot training I would hope that the Insurance companies would begin to get more comfortable with us and it should also translate into lower accident rates which also would lower our costs as well.

I know wishful thinking on my part but please remember before flaming me that I am not just an Insurance guy with 20yrs in this business I am a pilot and an RV builder so it affects me the same as it does you guys. I don't get a break on the rate as an agent to them I am the same as all of you so what helps me helps you and so on.

I hope this helps you to plan the costs a little better and takes some of the mystery out of the difference between the two types.

Thanks to CJ for inviting me and asking me to chime in here.

Keep pounding those rivets.

Jim Pappas RV7A #70026
Jim Pappas Insurance Agency Inc

[aerial]

Thanks Jim, that's a great contact. Can you give us a ballpark idea of what kind of hours we need in a taildragger, and total time for lower rates? I think I heard 300 tail time for the lowest rates.

[bmurrish]

I would like to jump in on aerial's question about insurance. Do you contact your agent when you hit the majic tailwheel time number and have your policy rewritten or is this something you are locked into for the period of the policy?

[Guest]

OK, two for one.

Most policies are for a year so no you won't see a break until your next renewal after you hit the numbers but now watch for answer #2.

The mysterious "magic number" is still somewhat a mystery. It's kind of like your wife getting mad at you and you aren't always sure why? You did everything the same as usual but for some reason she's mad at you this time? Insurance can be like that but if we try to do what we think they want it usually improves our odds. Asking questions like this is also a good start because we can plan for it then.

Having tail time is important, no question, but it is becoming more important that if you can get that time in the same type as your RV that carries more weight than simply tail time in a "comparable" (like there is such a thing to an RV:))

Bottom line is we should try to get our time built in as close to the model we will fly no matter if it's nose or tail. The companies like knowing we have done this once or twice in the same thing they are insuring us.

A minimum time frame seems to be 100 hours but as we get more there comes a point that it doesn't get any better too.

I would assume that Rosie (3000+TT and at least 2000+ in RV's) is getting the best break he is going to get for a while and that his rates are going to be way better than most of ours because he has so many hours in an RV and so many each year.

He flies more in a month than a lot of us fly in a year.

Hope it makes sense.

Bottom line, there doesn't seem to be a cut and dried rule that applies to a "magic number". Each 100 mark will move us a notch up the food chain but other than that just keep flying and flying safe I guess.

[captain_john]

The view from astern:

Taildragger



Nosedragger



I swiped these pics from Van's site.

Quite a difference between the two. I just love the view of the turtledeck from this angle, especially on the taildragger. I plan on putting some airbrushed artwork there on mine. I have some ideas, but I am keeping it a secret until the final moments.

I also want to do some more art and graphic designs on the wings, which should be quite visible from this angle as well.

This pic, I really like. It shows off color very well, as there is so much flat surface to view.



I also like the checkerboard tails on several of the planes I have seen.

Spike, do you have any paint schemes in mind? Anyone else?

CJ

[Spike]

Umm not really at this point. Though I dont want it generic and I dont want the plane jane with with a stripe down the side. Besides, the color and such is really up to Patti. That was the deal when I asked to build. Its not hard to imagine that my plane will be purple in some shape or form.

[Bob Barrett]

I have flown both the RV-6 and the RV-6A and the over the nose visibility of the 6A is far supieror to the 6! I have a TD endorsement and about 50 hrs of tail wheel time. Unfortunately I also ended upside down on take off in rental Champ. The FAA required that I demonstrate my capibility fly a tail wheel airplane with one of their staff on board. Try finding another rental tail wheel!

When I first decided to build I was advised to by one of Van's staff to build a nose gear plane because of visibility, inurance, handling in crosswinds, and resale.

What type of airplane do I prefer to fly? Tail dragers for boring holes in the sky and local travel. On cross country going to an unfamiliar airport or having to deal with a strong cross wind give me a nose gear. When I get my 6A built and flying and I win the lottery my second airplane will be TD! Right now the comptroller says we can only afford one airplane and some days she is not convinced we need that!

[darrylDog2000]

Holy cow did you stir up a hornets nest. I tried this in the RV8 forum with a post titled "Tail Dragger .vs. Trike" Guess I was in the wrong place.

I just recently decided on the TD. There are just too many nose wheel collapses for the number flying to suit me.