I’m currently starting an RV7 project and giving serious consideration to the Subaru 200 hp engine. I like the idea of using a modern, quieter engine with less vibration, the ability to use auto fuel, ease of getting parts from the local parts stores. Of course, some will argue (and I know one guy at Rostraver Airport, PA) that auto engines have no business in aviation.
I would like to find a discussion debating the choice of Subaru vs. the Lycoming traditional engines. Could someone point me to a URL if one exists
Any comments from people who have a Subaru would also be great. I’m looking for issues such as insurance , resale , reliability and other problems with the Subaru.
Tim
timotb@gmail.com
Subaru vs. Lycoming
Hi Tim,
First, I would say to put 'Subaru' in the search feature on this site (or just start reading the threads in this section of the forum). You'll find all kinds of threads that have discussed this at length...I've been involved with all of them, so I won't repeat all my words here. You'll find posts by me on both sides of the fence. I've had two orders in with Egg, and cancelled them both.
Second, that said, I still really do like the idea of the Subie, and think that it is becoming an viable alternative. Ross Farnham, rv6ejguy on here and VAF, is really our only flying Subaru guru on Rivetbangers right now. There are lots of them flying, but most are not on this board. Ross's Subie is not an Eggenfellner either, he built it himself, and did a great job!
I don't have one, so I can't comment on them as an owner, but I have ridden in a couple of H6 RV's. They are smooth (so is a properly balanced Lyc/clone), they are arguably more modern, they can use auto fuel (so can a Lyc/clone), and parts are easy and cheap to come by.
Insurance will not be a factor if you use a FWF company like Eggenfellner. Resale may or may not be an issue, that depends on the market at the time. Probably would sell at a similar price, but the number of buyers will be much smaller. The engine itself is exremely reliable...it's the accessories that are usuall the issue (same is mostly true for a Lyc/clone as well).
Problems that most address, are cooling and weight. Cooling can be dealt with, but will most likely be a compromise of temp vs. speed or climb. Nothing you can do about weight really, they are heavy.
I keep close tabs on Eggenfellner, but at this time, they just aren't quite there yet...but they will be someday.
First, I would say to put 'Subaru' in the search feature on this site (or just start reading the threads in this section of the forum). You'll find all kinds of threads that have discussed this at length...I've been involved with all of them, so I won't repeat all my words here. You'll find posts by me on both sides of the fence. I've had two orders in with Egg, and cancelled them both.
Second, that said, I still really do like the idea of the Subie, and think that it is becoming an viable alternative. Ross Farnham, rv6ejguy on here and VAF, is really our only flying Subaru guru on Rivetbangers right now. There are lots of them flying, but most are not on this board. Ross's Subie is not an Eggenfellner either, he built it himself, and did a great job!
I don't have one, so I can't comment on them as an owner, but I have ridden in a couple of H6 RV's. They are smooth (so is a properly balanced Lyc/clone), they are arguably more modern, they can use auto fuel (so can a Lyc/clone), and parts are easy and cheap to come by.
Insurance will not be a factor if you use a FWF company like Eggenfellner. Resale may or may not be an issue, that depends on the market at the time. Probably would sell at a similar price, but the number of buyers will be much smaller. The engine itself is exremely reliable...it's the accessories that are usuall the issue (same is mostly true for a Lyc/clone as well).
Problems that most address, are cooling and weight. Cooling can be dealt with, but will most likely be a compromise of temp vs. speed or climb. Nothing you can do about weight really, they are heavy.
I keep close tabs on Eggenfellner, but at this time, they just aren't quite there yet...but they will be someday.
Egg Sube vs Lyc
Chad,
In your research, did you find performance (cruise speed at similar fuel flow) comparable between the H6 and a Lyc (I)O 360? Are Sube powered planes slower than other planes with similar HP?
thanks,
In your research, did you find performance (cruise speed at similar fuel flow) comparable between the H6 and a Lyc (I)O 360? Are Sube powered planes slower than other planes with similar HP?
thanks,
Don
RV6A purchased flying
RV6A purchased flying
They all still seem to be slower with similar HP, NON turbo'd.
Here are some numbers from Andy Parish (I think that's his last name), posted on Egg's site...they seem pretty acurate from comparing those to some others that I know with the engine.
Ross's 4 Cyl. turbo EJ22T is very comparable to an O-360 180hp...faster as he goes higher...
This is a GREAT article from Ross's site-
http://www.sdsefi.com/air43.htm
Here are some numbers from Andy Parish (I think that's his last name), posted on Egg's site...they seem pretty acurate from comparing those to some others that I know with the engine.
His top speed at 170kts is burning around 12gph...Here are some #s from my flight last night. These may not represent other Sub RVs, just mine with its drag flaws and current configuration. Speeds are within a couple of knots and FF may be a little low. I flight plan using 140 KTAS and 6.5 gph for economy cruise.
OAT 89F, 30.06,at 6500 feet OAT 65F
RPM 1700 - 140 KTAS, 5.8 gph
RPM 1800 - 143 KTAS, 6.2 gph
RPM 1900 - 148 KTAS, 7.1 gph
RPM 2000 - 152 KTAS, 8.0 gph
Top speed is around 170KTAS
Andy
RV-7A, 2005 H-6, 175 hours, Gen 3 Reduction Drive.
Ross's 4 Cyl. turbo EJ22T is very comparable to an O-360 180hp...faster as he goes higher...
This is a GREAT article from Ross's site-
http://www.sdsefi.com/air43.htm
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captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
I have to be honest. When I started building the emp, I swore that I was going Soob.
I gave it due diligence and came to the conclusion that Lyco was the way for me to go.
Chad and Ross are probably the best authorities on this site when it comes to Soobs. Chad has researched them THOROUGHLY and Ross flies one.
Good luck with your decision!
CJ
I gave it due diligence and came to the conclusion that Lyco was the way for me to go.
Chad and Ross are probably the best authorities on this site when it comes to Soobs. Chad has researched them THOROUGHLY and Ross flies one.
Good luck with your decision!
CJRV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
My only thought after reading many threads about the popular Subaru conversion has nothing to do with the technical aspects of the engine. I would not buy anything from the popular Subaru conversion company without a well defined delivery date, payment schedule and a signed non-performance clause with respect to that date. I've read many threads about people ordering and paying up front with a promised delivery date. When these dates are not met, I've read that the popular Subaru conversion company is not ready to give a complete refund. I've heard that they give lots of excuses and try to shame the customer into staying with their program. Maybe an escrow company would be the way to go.
Building an airplane of your own should be a challenging and thrilling project not compromised by this sort of transaction.
Sorry for the rant.
Good Luck!
Building an airplane of your own should be a challenging and thrilling project not compromised by this sort of transaction.
Sorry for the rant.
Good Luck!
Re: Why?
Cooling drag is number one. Temperature control is probably a close second. The prop is most likely not a factor since it's constant speed.flytoboat wrote:Any idea why? Is it the prop that they use?
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captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
Hmmmm, cooling drag, huh? Forward CG being an issue too, maybe a belly cooler like a P-51 would be an interesting thought?
Personally, I am skeptical that they actually produce the advertised horsepower. That is likely the reason they under perform compared to their Lycodile counterparts.
Dunno...
CJ
Personally, I am skeptical that they actually produce the advertised horsepower. That is likely the reason they under perform compared to their Lycodile counterparts.
Dunno...
CJRV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
I would agree to that too, but I think the new redrive is addressing that somewhat...still may not be the advertised 200hp though. 
The CG can be dealt with, with more weight in the back via batteries or ballast...but that's what it is, more weight.
Ross is doing a belly intake like the -51 for his -10. It should prove worthwhile, and in the -10, there is room to pipe the system forward. It's a bit more difficult to do in a -7 since there's no subfloor to run the pipes between.
There's a big discussion on VAF right now about this idea. CAD drawings and all!
The CG can be dealt with, with more weight in the back via batteries or ballast...but that's what it is, more weight.
Ross is doing a belly intake like the -51 for his -10. It should prove worthwhile, and in the -10, there is room to pipe the system forward. It's a bit more difficult to do in a -7 since there's no subfloor to run the pipes between.
There's a big discussion on VAF right now about this idea. CAD drawings and all!
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cnpeters
- Class E
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:04 pm
- Location: Eureka (St. Louis), MO
- Contact:
I had been following Chad's interest a bit as a potential Subie customer, but after reviewing several real world performance data it became painfully obvious that even the newest redrive subies are not quite as efficient as the Lycos. They also cost more, are heavier, and are more complex. Despite well known advantages (mainly smoothness), it doesn't topple the Lycodile in my book. Performance is #1 for me - speed vs fuel burn, and the subies won't keep up with a Lyco FI running LOP.
Since CJ made a true confession, I will also chime in.
When I started building my 6A, I happend by the Eggenfellner booth at OSH and was mesmerized by his engine. I might add it was one of his early versions. I was impressed by the "bolt it on and start her up" engineering, as well as the prospect of a very smooth runner. So I made my deposit and gleefully went home to bang more rivets.
As time went on, and my "Gee Whiz" attitude wore off, I began to realize that perhaps this was not the engine for me. I started to look at all the accessories that I would need for the engine....electric variable pitch prop, turbocharger to get the desired performance, engine monitor.....the list went on. When added up, I would be paying WAY more for this engine than I would if I got a good midtime 0320. My original intent in buying the engine was to have a smooth running engine that wouldn't shake my airframe apart (or mine!)
In addition to the above, I began to notice that on occasion any questioning of performance or engineering of the Egg engine was met with some rather nasty responses from the company. This, coupled with the fact that there were new modifications coming out for the engine quite frequently made me feel that I would be a Beta tester if I went through with the deal. Not a warm and fuzzy feeling for me, as I am by no means a motorhead.
So I cancelled the order and got me a very good midtime 0320-E2D. To satisfy my desire to have a smooth running engine, I am turning a three blade Catto prop. Smooth as silk. Very reliable, time proven engine, and I can burn auto fuel if I so desire.
To me, the subies are a fine alternative for someone who is willing to be a part of "the movement" and tolerate the modifications that seem to continually come down the pike. If you like to tinker with engines, this is the way to go for you. But don't expect this conversion to save you any money or be any more reliable than the good old Lycoming.
As always, the above is just my opinion and not gospel.
There....I have confessed. Boy does that feel good CJ!
When I started building my 6A, I happend by the Eggenfellner booth at OSH and was mesmerized by his engine. I might add it was one of his early versions. I was impressed by the "bolt it on and start her up" engineering, as well as the prospect of a very smooth runner. So I made my deposit and gleefully went home to bang more rivets.
As time went on, and my "Gee Whiz" attitude wore off, I began to realize that perhaps this was not the engine for me. I started to look at all the accessories that I would need for the engine....electric variable pitch prop, turbocharger to get the desired performance, engine monitor.....the list went on. When added up, I would be paying WAY more for this engine than I would if I got a good midtime 0320. My original intent in buying the engine was to have a smooth running engine that wouldn't shake my airframe apart (or mine!)
In addition to the above, I began to notice that on occasion any questioning of performance or engineering of the Egg engine was met with some rather nasty responses from the company. This, coupled with the fact that there were new modifications coming out for the engine quite frequently made me feel that I would be a Beta tester if I went through with the deal. Not a warm and fuzzy feeling for me, as I am by no means a motorhead.
So I cancelled the order and got me a very good midtime 0320-E2D. To satisfy my desire to have a smooth running engine, I am turning a three blade Catto prop. Smooth as silk. Very reliable, time proven engine, and I can burn auto fuel if I so desire.
To me, the subies are a fine alternative for someone who is willing to be a part of "the movement" and tolerate the modifications that seem to continually come down the pike. If you like to tinker with engines, this is the way to go for you. But don't expect this conversion to save you any money or be any more reliable than the good old Lycoming.
As always, the above is just my opinion and not gospel.
There....I have confessed. Boy does that feel good CJ!
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
Hatz Classic, Welding fuselage
Hatz build log. https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blproject&p ... GNCwv&sid=
Peshtigo, WI
RV6A N782P
Hatz Classic, Welding fuselage
Hatz build log. https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blproject&p ... GNCwv&sid=
Peshtigo, WI
they are as much as a new 0360 IIRCpainless wrote:Since CJ made a true confession, I will also chime in.
I would be paying WAY more for this engine than I would if I got a good midtime 0320.
mine from superio was 20200$ usd IIRC actuall 21484 but they gave me a refund on the osh special because of the delivery date.
william....don't let it beat you down, you are stronger than you think.
They are actually more than an O-360. The non-turbo "E6" is $24,995. BUT, one does get everything FWF, except a prop for that. The prop, though, will set you back ANOTHER $10k! 
When it's all said and done, they are pretty close to even in the end if all is created equal...meaing FI, electronic ignition, and a CS prop for the Lyc.
Either are $$$
When it's all said and done, they are pretty close to even in the end if all is created equal...meaing FI, electronic ignition, and a CS prop for the Lyc.
Either are $$$
Regarding price comparisons....
My midtime mags/carburated 0320-E2D 150hp cost me $7800.00. I have since replaced with new the starter, Alternator, mags and plugs (finewires) which added another approximately $3000. The Catto prop I have cost (at the time) $1800.00. Add to that the cost of Van's firewall forward kit at $3500.00
So my total firewall forward cost was just under $16,500.00. Now I will conceed that this is not a fire-breathing, rip-snorting engine that will rocket me to altitude in a hearbeat, but MAN am I still having fun with it.
Granted, in about 800hrs I may need to OH it, but even then, considering most of the accessories are new, and deducting the cost of the firewall forward kit, I still will come in close to or below the price of new, and will have enjoyed flying behind it for several years at the rate I fly.
When I priced out all the goodies I would have needed for/with the subie conversion, it came out over $30,000. For a new fuel injected, electronic ignition 0360, sure I would pay that. But not for an auto conversion. To me, one of the attractions of going with a conversion should be that it is cheaper than a Lyc/clone.
For me, the midtime engine was the best course of action. Just couldn't convince the kids and the wife that they would have to forgo their college educations if I went with a more pumped up setup.
My midtime mags/carburated 0320-E2D 150hp cost me $7800.00. I have since replaced with new the starter, Alternator, mags and plugs (finewires) which added another approximately $3000. The Catto prop I have cost (at the time) $1800.00. Add to that the cost of Van's firewall forward kit at $3500.00
So my total firewall forward cost was just under $16,500.00. Now I will conceed that this is not a fire-breathing, rip-snorting engine that will rocket me to altitude in a hearbeat, but MAN am I still having fun with it.
Granted, in about 800hrs I may need to OH it, but even then, considering most of the accessories are new, and deducting the cost of the firewall forward kit, I still will come in close to or below the price of new, and will have enjoyed flying behind it for several years at the rate I fly.
When I priced out all the goodies I would have needed for/with the subie conversion, it came out over $30,000. For a new fuel injected, electronic ignition 0360, sure I would pay that. But not for an auto conversion. To me, one of the attractions of going with a conversion should be that it is cheaper than a Lyc/clone.
For me, the midtime engine was the best course of action. Just couldn't convince the kids and the wife that they would have to forgo their college educations if I went with a more pumped up setup.
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
Hatz Classic, Welding fuselage
Hatz build log. https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blproject&p ... GNCwv&sid=
Peshtigo, WI
RV6A N782P
Hatz Classic, Welding fuselage
Hatz build log. https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blproject&p ... GNCwv&sid=
Peshtigo, WI
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captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
Jeff, I can relate to the "gee whiz" effect of the Egg. I can remember going over to Wicked Stick's house extolling the virtues of Soob power! He was very polite and patient.
After doing some sniffing around I realized that I wanted more power, a more standard setup for cross country touring and less Egg Kool-Aid.
I didn't want to be a million miles from home with some type of automobile related problem with only aviation mechanics available to look at it. I know that many guys around my field would tell you, "Good luck with that" and walk the other way.
The price isn't really appealing and I am sure the FWF is fairly complicated compared to a Lycodile.
Toss in a weird prop and a modified engine mount and the deal is off for me.
We have a guy on my field with a -9A Egg that is flying and he has been trying to sell it for almost a year now. No dice! He says that if he were to do it again, he would go Lycoming.
Jeff, you are right. It is rather comforting!
CJ
After doing some sniffing around I realized that I wanted more power, a more standard setup for cross country touring and less Egg Kool-Aid.
I didn't want to be a million miles from home with some type of automobile related problem with only aviation mechanics available to look at it. I know that many guys around my field would tell you, "Good luck with that" and walk the other way.
The price isn't really appealing and I am sure the FWF is fairly complicated compared to a Lycodile.
Toss in a weird prop and a modified engine mount and the deal is off for me.
We have a guy on my field with a -9A Egg that is flying and he has been trying to sell it for almost a year now. No dice! He says that if he were to do it again, he would go Lycoming.
Jeff, you are right. It is rather comforting!
CJRV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
CJ:
Maybe we should be charter members of "Subies anonymous!"
Hello, I'm Jeff, and I almost installed a Subie.
Please note: Above comment is tongue in cheek and implies no disrespect to those who have chosen to use a Subie.
There...PC as well.....
Maybe we should be charter members of "Subies anonymous!"
Hello, I'm Jeff, and I almost installed a Subie.
Please note: Above comment is tongue in cheek and implies no disrespect to those who have chosen to use a Subie.
There...PC as well.....
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
Hatz Classic, Welding fuselage
Hatz build log. https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blproject&p ... GNCwv&sid=
Peshtigo, WI
RV6A N782P
Hatz Classic, Welding fuselage
Hatz build log. https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blproject&p ... GNCwv&sid=
Peshtigo, WI
-
captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
Good discussion guys and I'd agree with most of the comments here. You've kept things very factual and realistic.
Unless you are going to DIY, costs will be higher, weight will probably be higher, performance without a turbo will be lower and fuel burn will be higher. Bottom line, if performance is your main criteria for choice, the Sube is probably not for you.
Other concerns like fixing something mechanical away from home is also valid as there are no Sube parts at your airport and probably no mechanics to work on it. Conversely parts are quite available and cheap with a big dealer network and it is doubtful if you'd ever have a mechanical engine problem on a properly maintained and operated Subaru- same as a good Lycoming.
For people who want something different or who have had less then stellar Lycoming experiences in the past, A Subaru may be something to consider.
Unless you are going to DIY, costs will be higher, weight will probably be higher, performance without a turbo will be lower and fuel burn will be higher. Bottom line, if performance is your main criteria for choice, the Sube is probably not for you.
Other concerns like fixing something mechanical away from home is also valid as there are no Sube parts at your airport and probably no mechanics to work on it. Conversely parts are quite available and cheap with a big dealer network and it is doubtful if you'd ever have a mechanical engine problem on a properly maintained and operated Subaru- same as a good Lycoming.
For people who want something different or who have had less then stellar Lycoming experiences in the past, A Subaru may be something to consider.
Ross Farnham
Flying RV6A turbo Subie
Building RV10 twin turbo Subie
Flying RV6A turbo Subie
Building RV10 twin turbo Subie