How do you guys afford this stuff?

[N155RE]

Rod,
Another option is to buy a plane with another pilot to reduce the cost. This is what I did while building. I was able to purchase a nice RV4 with wicked stick. This allowed me to fly while building, gain some RV time and learn some tips from an experienced pilot. In the end when it was time to sell we basically got all our money back on the RV4. I wish I still had the RV4 while I'm trying to finish up my plane.
There are a lot of options out there if you want to fly and that doesn't include having to build a plane. I'm building because I enjoy it and like the idea of having a new plane in the end that will be much cheaper to maintain.

Best of luck

[Rod]

Bruce,

I just read your last response and it struck me, Portland is awfully close to Aurora. You work for Van's, don't you?! That was one hell of a commercial for them. If you don't do this for a living, you missed your calling. I can almost hear Frank Sinatra singing "Come Fly With Me" in the background.

All joking aside, I appreciate the heartfelt response from you. I really doubt we will ever see "eye to eye" on what the aviation community charges for their products. They certainly got you guys sold. I'm afraid I'm still on the fence about it. Truth be told, it reminds me of the time when I finally bought a Harley-Davidson Road King Classic (black, of course). Initially, I couldn't get over the fact it was going to cost me $20,000 (out the door) for a motorcycle. But, I wanted one so bad, I could taste it. Three years and 35,000 miles later, I sold it. The thing about Harley's, the phone rings off the hook when you sell them and you usually get a very good return. How is it with an experimental aircraft built by a first time builder?

Doing a little internet research last night I came across the RV workshops and it sounds exactly the type of exposure I would like to get involved in. Test the water.

Rod

[hydroguy2]

.....How is it with an experimental aircraft built by a first time builder? .......Rod

I would say the possibility exists that the plane will be worth more than you have invested. At least mine is!
Aurora was invited to be on display at the Montana Aviation Conference as a example of Experimental aviation. Here's a pic after the crowd left for the night. This is our first real exposure to a group of aviators, but got many praises and was told I should enter it for judging at OSH. I don't know about the judging part, but I'm certain I could pocket some money selling it.

[BSwayze]

Bruce,

I just read your last response and it struck me, Portland is awfully close to Aurora. You work for Van's, don't you?! That was one hell of a commercial for them. If you don't do this for a living, you missed your calling. I can almost hear Frank Sinatra singing "Come Fly With Me" in the background.

All joking aside, I appreciate the heartfelt response from you. In all honesty, I enjoy the debate about the feasibility of plane ownership. I really doubt we will ever see "eye to eye" on what the aviation community charges for their products. They certainly got you guys sold. I'm afraid I'm still on the fence about it. Truth be told, it reminds me of the time when I finally bought a Harley-Davidson Road King Classic (black, of course). Initially, I couldn't get over the fact it was going to cost me $20,000 (out the door) for a motorcycle. But, I wanted one so bad, I could taste it. Three years and 35,000 miles later, I sold it. The thing about Harley's, the phone rings off the hook when you sell them and you usually get a very good return. How is it with an experimental aircraft built by a first time builder?

Doing a little internet research last night I came across the RV workshops and it sounds exactly the type of exposure I would like to get involved in. Test the water.

Rod

Thanks, Rod,

It's good to inject a dose of humor into this discussion. I'm saying humor because I'm laughing right now. It's true I'm not too far from Aurora, but no, honestly, I'm not an employee of Vans. Never have been and never will be. Just a happy customer, that's all. And no, this wasn't meant to be a commercial for them either.

I should respond to your comment "They certainly got you guys sold". I wouldn't say I'm sold so much. It would be more accurate to use the word "acceptance". I still don't like the high price of entry into aviation, but I have come to accept it. It is what it is. And there's nothing I can do about it. Complaining about it won't help any, that's for sure. If you want to play, you have to accept the facts for what they are and figure out how to get in the game. This was the best way for me.

One more comment about Vans, at the risk of sounding like another commercial. A little research will show you that the economies of scale and the automation that they have at the factory gives them a big competitive advantage, that in the end helps us. They pass the savings on to us. The way they are able to buy aluminum sheet in large quantities, for example, means that they are able to offer finished, highly engineered pre-punched parts to us for little more than it would cost you and me to buy the raw aluminum sheet on our own and do all that fabrication work ourselves. These kits are really a very good value, and a lot of bang for the buck. Don't take my word for it. Check it out for yourself.

I swear, they aren't paying me to say this! It's just that I did my homework and research before I bought my kit. I needed to know that nobody is taking advantage of me, overcharging me, or ripping me off. You don't get to be the biggest kit plane company in the world, with over 7,000 finished flying aircraft and many thousands more under construction, by overcharging or offering a poor value. They've been at this for 38 years now. They would have been busted long before now. Or the competition would have killed 'em.

Okay... 'nuff said. Jeeeez, I guess I just can't help myself. Maybe I should go to work for Vans. Hey Vans! Need some more help?

I'm glad you looked into the workshops, Rod. Let us know how that works out, okay?

[Tom Harp]

What does pre-punched mean?

[bruceh]

What does pre-punched mean?

All of the skins, ribs, etc. have holes already punched where the rivets will ultimately attach everything. You hold everything together with clecos and then final drill the holes to the correct size of the rivets.
It makes rigging up the assemblies a moot point. They come out straight and true without much effort.

As to the main topic of cost, yes it is expensive. The market for aircraft parts and equipment is small compared to other consumer goods. I think the value is there if you compare it to other niche market items.

As to how can I afford this? It will look cheap after paying for my kids college tuition

[hydroguy2]

What does pre-punched mean?

It means most all the holes are located and under sized holes are punched out in the aluminum parts. Makes the pieces go together perfectly and then you final ream or drill them. No jigs are needed since everything already lines up.

on cost: I built instead of paying for my kids college

[Rod]

Bruce, at first I thought you were talking about when you first met your wife, then I thought you were talking about the birth of one of your children. No, he's talking about Vans again. You keep this up Bruce and we're going to have to get Spike to throw you off this website!

Brian, that sure is a beautiful plane! At least from the ass end. Is that the best picture of it you have? If it's an award contender, I'd like to see a full side view of it. How long did it take to build from box to paint?

I went to Oshkosh only once. It was the year when the Concorde was going to be there (until it crashed). I had an opportunity to climb into a lot of the experimental aircraft. The only one I felt really comfortable in was the Rans Coyote. I'm 6'3", 230 lbs. Anyone have an idea if the RV 12 will accommodate me.

Rod

[hydroguy2]

Rod, I'm surprised you haven't seen a pic.... I've posted pics until these guys were gonna puke.

I don't know about award winner, but came out pretty nice for a Dam mechanic. Here's a link to final assembly: http://www.rivetbangers.com/forums/view ... c&&start=0

and if you need a boost to start here's a video link to first flight day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CX5BCILpJY

It took 4 years from first rivet to first flight, including many months of no work waiting for money or parts or life. I crammed a lot of hours into the build this last year & worth every moment.
Here's a pic from Wednesday morning after a 1hr therapy run.


I help a friend build a Rans S-6,


but wanted my own Cross Country cruiser, hence the RV-7. Also I flown the Rans S-19 and sat in the RV-12. I'm a big(ok fat) guy 6' 245# and fit in both easily.

[Rod]

Brian,

I haven't had an opportunity to check out the entire site. With 931 posts it looks like you're all over the place. Beautiful plane! So that is what $80,000 will get you. I've admired the 7 tail-dragger for a long time. It was my lead choice. I have not had an opportunity to fly at 200 mph in a RV. It must be a kick!

P.S. That Coyote sure made it easy for me to get in and out of. Not nearly as nice looking as the RV though!

Rod

[BSwayze]

Bruce, at first I thought you were talking about when you first met your wife, then I thought you were talking about the birth of one of your children. No, he's talking about Vans again. You keep this up Bruce and we're going to have to get Spike to throw you off this website!
Rod

[facial]

rod- depends on what u want.
You can buy a great 4 now for 45 or 50k. and if you dont need extra toys then cheaper.
Build an aircraft only if you really want to build one. I'm not a builder I'm a flier. It takes a dedicated individual to build an aircraft and follow it through to the end. You have to enjoy that.
If you don't need a certified aircraft then stick with home-built. maintenance is a big cost.
And yes fuel is expensive as well but not nearly as much as some of these boats and other expensive toys out there. it's nothing for someone to have 50k in a vehicle they don't need. And the depreciation is of no comparison.
Hopefully you are fairly close to a small airport otherwise tie down and drive time could add to the cost.

[Tom Harp]

Ya'll really know how to rub(punch) it in. Heh:Heh

[Rod]

Facial,

It sounds like you are in a higher income bracket than me. I could not afford a $50,000 vehicle that I didn't need. I'm still not sure I would pay $50,000 for ANY type of vehicle (plane, boat, car).

Rod

[svanarts]

I went to Oshkosh only once. It was the year when the Concorde was going to be there (until it crashed). I had an opportunity to climb into a lot of the experimental aircraft. The only one I felt really comfortable in was the Rans Coyote. I'm 6'3", 230 lbs. Anyone have an idea if the RV 12 will accommodate me.

Rod

Funny, I think the Coyote has almost too much legroom. I can barely reach the rudder pedals.

[Rod]

Scott,

Do you have pictures of your plane? I believe that plane comes in a Dope and Fabric or Dacron Slip option. Which covering did you go with? Obviously, the Coyote is a much slower plane than most of the RV line, but it might be on par with the 12. Any thoughts?

Rod

[hydroguy2]

Here's a Ran's forum: http://www.ransclan.com/forums/index.php

RV-12 and S-6 share the same engine and are LSA capable airplanes. After that, things diverge.
S-6 is a 100mph fabric high wing, rugged enough for landing in a farm field with short fuel range.
RV-12 is 130mph Aluminum low wing, prefers pavement and has fuel/range for more comfortable XC routes.

I think both are good planes, but possibly different missions.

[Rod]

Good Morning Brian!

I'm aware of the two different plane configurations and the different mission platforms, but I thought the Coyote did a little better in speed than that.

Out the door. Gotta go to work!

[facial]

Rod
sure everything is cost comparative. I'd like to have a nice war bird but my income cant support it.
Once again the question is what type of flying do you want? And plan on doing.

if you just want to get in the air then a challenger will do that and at least cost.
Do you need a ppl? Not cheap receiving it now a days. Maybe a lower level license would do.

Good luck. First step is your pilots license.

[facial]

and yes we are willing to give up tv, vacations and such to enjoy are sport. This is because we have a love for aviation and this why we chose it over other things. Yes some peoples lives in here do revolve around flying.

First thing rod get your pilots license and then decide how much you enjoy it and go from there.