Rivet questions

[cjensen]

i finally started riveting today! however, i have a couple of questions now that the right side HS spar is done (left side still cleco'd).

first, i have couple of machined heads (470's) that are ever so slightly sitting at an angle-e.g. i can slip my pinky finger fingernail under the head, but i don't think it reaches the shank. should i worry about this?

second, for some reason, several of my shop heads are not centered. i am hand squeezing these, and i feel like i am keeping the squeezer absolutely straight all the way though the squeeze, but i'm still ending up with the shop head off a little to one side. other than being off to one side, they are perfect in both of the post squeezed gauges.

i know that if i call van's, they'll more than likely say "build on". what would you guys do? should i build on, or drill 'em. i've re-read the section in the manual about setting rivets, and which one's absolutely must be drilled. the machined head issue says "ok, but"--what does that mean? and, it doesn't sound like the shop head is that much of an issue in the manual either. other than that, i think they look great, and i feel confident in them, especially since there are so many of them.

help!

[captain_john]

Chad,

470's that aren't sitting straight, huh? Sounds like the drilled hole(s) aren't truly perpendicular or not properly lined up. This doesn't mean the "rivet" itself is bad. The practice could be better. Watch the match drilling process more closely. Before you pull the trigger on the drill, check to be sure you are square with the material. I am guessing the joint isn't bad. If you don't have that many of them, you can leave them.

As far as the lop sided shop heads, drill them. These are called "clubbed rivets" they are bad. I bought a cheap Tatco (I think) squeezer and it is poorly aligned. It did this routinely. At first I was blaming myself, then I borrowed WS's Avery and it worked marvelously!

Hope this helps.

CJ

[cjensen]

well, i guess i have some drilling to do.

i can't believe the squeezer would be at fault. i have a martin aircraft tool squeezer, and all of the practice rivets i squeezed in the training kit had perfect shop heads. i'll take a look at the yoke though.

thanks CJ.

[Spike]

Chad,  if you are positive that the squeezer is a good, then I think that CJ is correct about the holes not being perpendicular to the surface of the parts. The good news is that you can easily check by dropping the rivets in the hole and seeing if the mfg head sits flush on the part. If it does sit flush on the part and its not flush after squeezing, then its either you, the squeezer, or too much play between the rivet and hole (letting it shift while sqeezing.) Take some scrap and play around, purposely drilling holes of different types.

Hope that helps.

-- John

i can't believe the squeezer would be at fault. i have a martin aircraft tool squeezer, and all of the practice rivets i squeezed in the training kit had perfect shop heads. i'll take a look at the yoke though.

Submitted via email

[captain_john]

Playing with scrap is a great idea.

Another thing which you may or may not be doing is lining up your materials with pin punches. Go to Sears and get some 3/32" and 1/8" blunt tipped pin punches. Get some smaller ones too, because often times... the holes are WAAAAY off.

Once lined up with the punches, you can cleco things into position.

CJ

[Dan A]

Chad,
Be sure to cleco the pieces together and remove them only when you are ready to set the rivit. Also rivit every 3rd or 4th hole the first go 'round. Then go back and fill in the remaining holes. Aluminum has a nasty habit of streaching and if you try to rivit them all in a row the holes will creep and you will have a mess!
Good luck, Dan, flying the 40 hrs off.

[cjensen]

thanks CJ, spike, and Dan!

i am happy to report that i am the happy owner of a completed rear HS spar (except torque-ing down the center bearing). after talking with CJ earlier today, and reviewing the couple of responses here, i went out and drilled ALL of the rivets out! well, i got to looking at them, and all of 'em were "clubbed". not good. so once they were drilled out, i took a really close look at the yoke i was using to set those. turns out, the yoke is off ever so slightly, and was pushing the shop head to the outside. this was a 3" yoke that i borrowed from work. needless to say, i won't be borrowing that one again! so, i went back to my yoke (which is a 1 1/2" yoke that i used to set the first five on each side-those were fine, and didn't get drilled out) to re-set all those rivets. all of this tied in with me trying to get the two rows of rivets done before my wife returned from the mall (i was supposed to be cleaning the house, since we had company coming over last night). i am somewhat of a perfectionist, but i have a thing with repetition. sometimes when i get into a rythem, i don't stop to check my work. if i would've checked after a couple had been set, i wouldn't have had to drill them out as i would've caught the mistake early enough.

anyway, i spent four and half hours today working on it, and i got it done. my hands are a little sore, as i have yet to invest in a pneumatic squeezer. i know i should, but MAN, that's a LOT of money for one tool!! so, i am moving on to the ribs, and front spar over the next few days.

thanks CJ for the phone call today! this webboard is such a HUGE resource, and a great place for friends!! , but true!!

[captain_john]

Chad,

You are welcome.

...and I know I don't need to sell you on the merits of the pneu squeezer.

Glad it all worked out.

CJ

[cjensen]

here's some pics of my mistakes, and progress.

this is...obvious what i've done here


it's hard to see, but the sets are not lined up, and the yoke is off to the top of the pic a little


another one that's probably hard to see. these are the shop heads after being drilled out. "clubbed"


here's a couple of completed pics.




in the end, all is well...

[jimrobinette]

Chad,

As CJ said, I am sure you don't need to be sold, but the pneumatic is worth every penny! It is one of those things, like TiVo, once you've had it, you'll never go back to how you did it before. Nice tools pay for themselves in time and effort saved. It is the one tool you will have to pry from my hands when I am dead.

I second the thanks you gave to CJ. Both he and Thermos have been a great help to me over the last few months. I have placed many a phone call to those two.

Wish you could make it to the AeroElectrick seminar CJ is putting on this weekend. It is sure to be a great learning experience.

Glad to see you got your HS spar done.

Take care,

Jim

...my hands are a little sore, as i have yet to invest in a pneumatic squeezer. i know i should, but MAN, that's a LOT of money for one tool!! so, i am moving on to the ribs, and front spar over the next few days.

[cjensen]

thanks jim! i wish i could make it out there as well. sounds like a great learning experience.

i will be buying a pneu squeezer, i'm sure. i know it'll pay for itself.

[jim_geo]

A little hint that was taught in our rivet class was to look at the reflection of the drill on the skins. If the drill bit and the reflection line up straight the hole will be straight. I tried this in a woodworking project using a mirror and it worked great for me for that purpose also. Sounds like the problem was actually a mis-aligned squeezer though.

[Spike]

...this webboard is such a HUGE resource, and a great place for friends!! , but true!!

Thats good to hear Chad. Thanx.

[captain_john]

That's the SAME P.O.S. SQUEEZER I GOT!

I use it strictly for dimpling now! When I did my HS it turned out THE SAME WAY!

I didn't have to drill out as many because I switched over to the old fasioned method before I ruined too many. I recall being pleased with my performance early on with the bucking bar and rivet gun.

That pleasure soon waned when I couldn't FOR THE LIFE OF ME set the HS forward spar rivets on the angle brackets!

Now THAT is where the FUN starts!

Jim R, thanks for the kind words. I got your RB shirt RIGHT HERE! I will bring it this weekend to the gig.

CJ

[jimrobinette]

Chad and others,

Since we are talking about driving rivets manually...

Having never used a manual squeezer (ok, all the purists throw your arms up now ), only the pneumatic and a rivet gun, at Osh I stopped by the Cleveland tent and saw they had the "Main Squeeze" there. Picke up the regualr squeezer and tried it and then the MS. What a difference some weight makes! Also, the MS had a prototype yoke on it that was drilled out and much lighter than a regular yoke. If I were to buy a manual squeezer, or just too old school to use a pneumatic one, I would defect from the Avery camp and go over to Cleveland camp and buy the MS. It is dramtically lighter!

Take care,

Jim

That's the SAME P.O.S. SQUEEZER I GOT!

I use it strictly for dimpling now! When I did my HS it turned out THE SAME WAY!

[cjensen]

actually, it wasn't the squeezer, it was the yoke itself that was not square. that squeezer is excellent! with a good yoke of course.

ok, i'm taking the plunge and ordering a pneumatice squeezer!! should've done it from the start, but now i have a war story to tell!

anyway, last night was GREAT! my dad and i set the skin rivets, and this thing actually looks like something that could take to the skies someday! i had a few problems setting the leading edge rib to skin rivets. not real sure why though. the first couple were perfect, then they started looking bad. i got it straightened out after drilling a couple out, but i can't figure out why they gave me trouble. maybe 'cuz it's not a flat surface? i don't know. it's done, and now i have to repeat all that for the right side.

this is really fun!!

[captain_john]

Chad,

Those short rib rivets are tough. Check the length on them. You may find a longer rivet to be better in those types of places.

Glad to hear that your squeeze issues are settled!

CJ

[cjensen]

that's exactly what i did CJ. the first two right on the leading edge were set perfectly. the others were not good. i drilled 'em out and used the next size length and it worked out pretty well. i did accidentally enlarge the last hole, and had to go to the next size rivet, but it's almost un-noticeable.

[prestwich]

I thought I'd reopen this thread now that I'm actually riveting. I finished the HS rear spar on my 7A, and I'm happy with almost all of the rivets. Most of the rivet length callouts were a tad on the short side and I managed to squeeze 'em straight. But, the last couple of brackets had more free length on the rivet (yes I'm sure I used the correct ones) and I got at least one rivet that's a bit "clubbed." How do you know when it's OK to leave it as is? The finished height and diameter are fine.

Also, why the hell are my flat squeezer dies crowned? Seems like they should be dead flat, or even slightly concave. Having that slightly convex shape to them seems like an invitation to clubbing the rivets.

[jim_geo]

I have also run into rivet callouts being a bit to long for the job to be done. I have found the rivets HAVE to be cut to length. In order to drive or squeeze correctly. Your right your set should be flat not convex or concave. Should maybe find out what's happening with that.